This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Yes, another top level comment about The Origins of Woke from me, in the same thread on the same week. But this is about something else. I had an epiphany while reading the book.
I've wondered for many years why Marxism is more socially acceptable than racism when it's responsible for even more deaths than the Holocaust. It's because companies are (de facto) legally required to fire racists, but they're not required to fire Marxists. In fact, firing a Marxist for merely being Marxist would be illegal in California.
California has a state law against firing people for their political beliefs, but it didn't protect James Damore, who was fired in compliance with the law against creating a hostile work environment for protected groups.
It all adds up.
Nobody yet seems to have considered that amongst normal 15-25 year old people, right-wingers are less pleasant to be around than "Marxists", and have comparatively much lower social status. I am not talking about behavioral extremists who interrupt lectures or something. I'm talking about how for some rando college student, their cool friend who is eloquent and gets invited to parties is far more likely to subscribe to some far-left ideology than a far-right one.
Who is more likely to bring you shame when you bring him around, your racist and homophobic programmer friend, or your Marxist friend who reads French literature and watches art films in his free time?
I feel like these dynamics are reflected in other age groups too, to an extent. Right wingers who are smart and eloquent have carved out their niche on the internet, but in meatspace there is a vast discrepancy in likable-human-capital.
Absolutely the Marxist. He could go off at any time and have an embarrassing meltdown at someone, possibly even me, in public, about some tiny slight or microaggression. Being friends with these people is a nightmare of hoping nothing sets them off and ruins the rest of your day. I don't have to worry about that with the other guy.
Real life isn't the internet. The average Marxist friend is just a dude concerned with sounding smart and banging chicks. Maybe it's because I'm a European, but "Marxist" here doesn't mean "cares about microaggressions".
This is simply not true. The Germans cancelled Karl freakin' May for crying out loud.
For a while Euros could enjoy the time lag between cultural changes taking hold in America before they made their way to Europe, but it's over. Right now, from west to east, if you want to call yourself left wing, you have to be on board with San Francisco morality.
Are you a friend of this Karl May? If not, this is still an "internet event" for you. My friend group has actual Marxists in it, and quite a lot of left-wing people, or at least people who strongly support LGBT or whatever the American embassy has cook up for them in a given month. Nevertheless, I have not seen a public meltdown once.
Then again, we are a homogeneous Catholic nation, and our only experience with immigrants was Syrians passing through, and then a wave of SE immigrant workers who everybody agrees are nice and doesn't really think about. Funny enough, we've held a couple of BLM marches (allegedly) but they mostly didn't register. I suppose our strongest leftist factions are LGBT and feminists, but no real tantrums happen (outside of popular instagram pages "calling out misogyny").
I mean, I agree. It's just that nothing really important happens here in my country, and we have very little ammunition to cancel people with. Maybe Germany really has become like the US as of late (in terms of public-meltdown-having leftist activists gaining power), I just wouldn't know.
Every boy who grew in formerly Marxist Central Europe is friend of Karl May, because Marxists liked Karl May a lot, because they printed his books by the millions and made(together with Western capitalists) dozens of movies based on his works.
No surprise, these are extremely progressive works where working class heroes fight against big landlords, big ranchers, railroad and oil companies and other exploiters.
If Karl May was really cancelled in today's Germany, it is anything than victory for Marxism.
Yes, we shall judge Marxism according to the decades when Marxists were in power, not according to contemporary rainbow furry freaks, even when they wave red flags.
Just like we, for example, judge Christianity according to 15+ centuries when Christianity was in power, not according to disheveled freaks screaming at street and internet corners that the end is near.
I mention it every once in a while, I have a lot of sympathy for Legacy Marxists. The successor ideology has a knack for killing things and wearing them as a skin suit, so I'm happy to admit whatever the hell they're pushing isn't Marxism, but when they wearing it as skin suit a statement like ' "Marxist" here doesn't mean "cares about microaggressions" ' is clearly false.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link