naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
How would Zionists behave if they were in the Palestinian position?
This is a key question for determining the moral severity of the terrorist attacks we saw this weekend. A common criticism of Hamas is that they engage in terrorism against civilians whereas their morally enlightened (ostensibly) Israeli cousins only attack military targets. But I think this ignores the fact that Israel has the luxury of successfully hitting military targets. Israel can kill just as many civilians as Hamas by targeting military sites, while also killing relevant military leaders and defending against unwanted criticism. Yet at the end of the day, the same if not more civilians are killed, and the same terror is instilled in the enemy’s civilian population. Regarding an Israeli missile attack in May which killed ten civilians, Amnesty writes:
They were launched into densely populated urban areas at 2am when families were sleeping at home, which suggests that those who planned and authorized the attacks anticipated – and likely disregarded – the disproportionate harm to civilians. Intentionally launching disproportionate attacks, a pattern Amnesty International has documented in previous Israeli operations, is a war crime.
The idea that it is morally acceptable to kill civilians when you also kill military targets at the same time is often brought up when American bombings in Japan during WWII are discussed. However, I’m not convinced that there is a clear moral difference between Hamas actions and, say, the firebombing of Tokyo, where as many as 100k were killed, the vast majority being civilians.
Back to the question at hand, we know that Zionists had no issue bombing embassies and killing non-combatants in order to colonize the land of what is now called Israel. In the 40s, they notably bombed a British embassy, and in the 50s the Israeli government pressured Britain and Italy not to investigate the bombing. Recently, an Israeli historian has claimed that Zionists were responsible for the bombings targeting the Jews of Baghdad in order to pressure Jews to migrate and settle Israel. So, back when Israel’s position was more similar to Palestine, they did in fact engage in terrorist activity. If Israeli militants would behave as Hamas militants were they in that position, then the immorality of Hamas conduct is greatly diminished in severity.
Not all people, not all civilizations, not all tribes, are equal. This is a core conservative conceit, it’s also inherent to ideas like HBD that you yourself agree with. Human progress has always involved the conquest of some peoples by others.
“I do not admit that the dog in the manger has the final right to the manger, even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit, for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race, or, at any rate, a more worldly-wise race, to put it that way, has come in and taken their place. I do not admit it. I do not think the Red Indians had any right to say, 'The American Continent belongs to us and we are not going to have any of these European settlers coming in here.' They had not the right, nor had they the power.”
Winston Churchill on Palestine (1937)
‘Punching down’, in other words, may be more moral than ‘punching up’. The many settlers of the Americas did what they did and so, perhaps, will the Israelis.
Funny coming from someone like you rather willing to whine about racism, antisemitism while simultaneously pushing your own genocidal and racist supremacist agendas.
Fundamentally your words are hollow and it is BS BS, We Jews are superior (including those of lower IQ and can do as we want.
Like this monstrous inferior savage:
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."
It is true that humans are not equal. And trying to enforce that all groups do equally well is folly. However, there is another way that not all groups are equal. And that is morality.
There is a reason why adults who are smarter are not allowed by any sane society to pray on children who are weaker and lower intelligence.
Some people are cruel, predatory, hypocritical, ingrates, and have all the traits of murderous narcisistic sociopaths. I am not talking hre about da Jews although I think you personally have argued one too many times about carpet bombing middle east and similiar rhetoric although never once been banned for it. Recently you have been promoting the final solution to palestinian problem and genocidal mass murder.
The short of it is that you are willing to destroy civilizations and support attrocities because you are a hateful racist fanatic who lacks decency.
AND when others have even a sane menality critical of your people engaging in this dark racist supremacist path that is pervasive, you whine about racism.
Obviously you wouldn't acceept others treating you by the same coin. Indeed, your whine about nazism is utterly hypocritical considering your only difference is your group you are a racist supremacist for.
I am glad in this instance you show your power level as you have done in others. But trully you are allowed to be this way because of others who are like you.
Anyhow, as you very well know (you are someone who whines about others being racist over petty nonsense when you are this kind of person) the concept but pretend not to, because you are bloodthirsty racist supremacist fanatic, obviously there is a value in certain forms of equality even if the concept of equality going far is utterly idiotic.
And that has to do with rights and equality under the law. Just like we shouldn't let ten dumber people gang up on one smarter person, we should also not allow the later defraud the first. but actually you are no IQ supremacist, having opposed HBDers and having supported AA, but suddenly you become the most hardcore of HBD racist supremacist when it comes to da Jews.
A sane society would not tolerate hateful fanatics like you to promote your propaganda and advocate for warcrimes. Least of all your rhetoric in favor of war crimes and mass murder in the middle east is not unrelated to the millions who died there. And of course your rhetoric in favor of cultural genocide in west, and the vile agendas related to that.
Of course you are contemptible from both a universalistic perspective as a malevolent dishonest predatory and parasitical racist supremacist and a local one. Whether the local funnilly enough applies to pretty much most non jewish groups. And likely those you want to use as goldems against your outgroup.
I never opposed it (and have pretty much the standard take here, i.e. that the evidence is compelling). As for AA, I think what I said is that HBD and affirmative action aren’t actually mutually exclusive under a tribal spoils system, but again, I don’t think that has much to do with the point he’s trying to make.
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Notes -
How would Zionists behave if they were in the Palestinian position?
This is a key question for determining the moral severity of the terrorist attacks we saw this weekend. A common criticism of Hamas is that they engage in terrorism against civilians whereas their morally enlightened (ostensibly) Israeli cousins only attack military targets. But I think this ignores the fact that Israel has the luxury of successfully hitting military targets. Israel can kill just as many civilians as Hamas by targeting military sites, while also killing relevant military leaders and defending against unwanted criticism. Yet at the end of the day, the same if not more civilians are killed, and the same terror is instilled in the enemy’s civilian population. Regarding an Israeli missile attack in May which killed ten civilians, Amnesty writes:
The idea that it is morally acceptable to kill civilians when you also kill military targets at the same time is often brought up when American bombings in Japan during WWII are discussed. However, I’m not convinced that there is a clear moral difference between Hamas actions and, say, the firebombing of Tokyo, where as many as 100k were killed, the vast majority being civilians.
Back to the question at hand, we know that Zionists had no issue bombing embassies and killing non-combatants in order to colonize the land of what is now called Israel. In the 40s, they notably bombed a British embassy, and in the 50s the Israeli government pressured Britain and Italy not to investigate the bombing. Recently, an Israeli historian has claimed that Zionists were responsible for the bombings targeting the Jews of Baghdad in order to pressure Jews to migrate and settle Israel. So, back when Israel’s position was more similar to Palestine, they did in fact engage in terrorist activity. If Israeli militants would behave as Hamas militants were they in that position, then the immorality of Hamas conduct is greatly diminished in severity.
Not all people, not all civilizations, not all tribes, are equal. This is a core conservative conceit, it’s also inherent to ideas like HBD that you yourself agree with. Human progress has always involved the conquest of some peoples by others.
‘Punching down’, in other words, may be more moral than ‘punching up’. The many settlers of the Americas did what they did and so, perhaps, will the Israelis.
Funny coming from someone like you rather willing to whine about racism, antisemitism while simultaneously pushing your own genocidal and racist supremacist agendas.
Fundamentally your words are hollow and it is BS BS, We Jews are superior (including those of lower IQ and can do as we want.
Like this monstrous inferior savage:
It is true that humans are not equal. And trying to enforce that all groups do equally well is folly. However, there is another way that not all groups are equal. And that is morality.
There is a reason why adults who are smarter are not allowed by any sane society to pray on children who are weaker and lower intelligence.
Some people are cruel, predatory, hypocritical, ingrates, and have all the traits of murderous narcisistic sociopaths. I am not talking hre about da Jews although I think you personally have argued one too many times about carpet bombing middle east and similiar rhetoric although never once been banned for it. Recently you have been promoting the final solution to palestinian problem and genocidal mass murder.
The short of it is that you are willing to destroy civilizations and support attrocities because you are a hateful racist fanatic who lacks decency.
AND when others have even a sane menality critical of your people engaging in this dark racist supremacist path that is pervasive, you whine about racism.
Obviously you wouldn't acceept others treating you by the same coin. Indeed, your whine about nazism is utterly hypocritical considering your only difference is your group you are a racist supremacist for.
I am glad in this instance you show your power level as you have done in others. But trully you are allowed to be this way because of others who are like you.
Anyhow, as you very well know (you are someone who whines about others being racist over petty nonsense when you are this kind of person) the concept but pretend not to, because you are bloodthirsty racist supremacist fanatic, obviously there is a value in certain forms of equality even if the concept of equality going far is utterly idiotic.
And that has to do with rights and equality under the law. Just like we shouldn't let ten dumber people gang up on one smarter person, we should also not allow the later defraud the first. but actually you are no IQ supremacist, having opposed HBDers and having supported AA, but suddenly you become the most hardcore of HBD racist supremacist when it comes to da Jews.
A sane society would not tolerate hateful fanatics like you to promote your propaganda and advocate for warcrimes. Least of all your rhetoric in favor of war crimes and mass murder in the middle east is not unrelated to the millions who died there. And of course your rhetoric in favor of cultural genocide in west, and the vile agendas related to that.
Of course you are contemptible from both a universalistic perspective as a malevolent dishonest predatory and parasitical racist supremacist and a local one. Whether the local funnilly enough applies to pretty much most non jewish groups. And likely those you want to use as goldems against your outgroup.
Wait, what? 2rafa opposing HBDers? I'd have to see the posts to believe it.
I never opposed it (and have pretty much the standard take here, i.e. that the evidence is compelling). As for AA, I think what I said is that HBD and affirmative action aren’t actually mutually exclusive under a tribal spoils system, but again, I don’t think that has much to do with the point he’s trying to make.
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