naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
This topic perhaps more than others is impossible to find good analysis of. Could some of you help me understand the arguments around something?
I routinely see people call Gaza "an open air prison". But...isnt' Egypt participating in this open air imprisonment? Egypt has a border with Gaza. If the Israelis are imprisoning the Gazans, then aren't the Egyptians doing the same thing?
And why would these two groups coordinate on this? Same question goes for: shutting of water/electricity. Why would Egypt help Israel with this? Why doesn't Egypt simply give the Gazans the water they need?
edit: I think my question was unclear here. I understand the obvious answers which are basically: Hamas/Gaza are terrorists. Of course Egypt doesn't want them. What I'm asking for is for somebody to steelman the liberal position that Gaza is an "open air prison" and that this is Israel's fault.
If the Israelis are imprisoning the Gazans, then aren't the Egyptians doing the same thing?
Are the Egyptians the occupying power of Gaza? No, they're not. It's not their problem, Gaza are foreigners. If they were administrating military vs civilian laws in Gaza, overseeing policing and so on of Gaza, bombing power plants, then it would be their problem and their responsibility.
You're not in prison if your neighbour says 'trespassers will be shot'. You're in prison if the people in control of your land, Israel, use military occupation and various heavy-handed tactics such as a sea, air and land blockade, which they do. The Egyptians also have policies against trade with Gaza but they don't control its borders or territory!
And? We all acknowledge that Israel is blockading Gaza (with Egypt's cooperation). You can argue that constitutes an "occupation" if you like, but you were talking about administering laws and overseeing policing. Israel is not doing that in Gaza.
OK, administering laws is a bit of a whitewash, my error. If the Israelis don't like someone in Gaza, they'll drop a 1-tonne bomb on them, or reduce food, water and power supplies to the whole population as collective punishment. Or they'll shoot unarmed protestors several hundred metres within the fence. That's not quite what people mean by policing either, in a meaningful sense.
In other parts of the thread people are wondering why it's called an open-air prison...
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Notes -
This topic perhaps more than others is impossible to find good analysis of. Could some of you help me understand the arguments around something?
I routinely see people call Gaza "an open air prison". But...isnt' Egypt participating in this open air imprisonment? Egypt has a border with Gaza. If the Israelis are imprisoning the Gazans, then aren't the Egyptians doing the same thing?
And why would these two groups coordinate on this? Same question goes for: shutting of water/electricity. Why would Egypt help Israel with this? Why doesn't Egypt simply give the Gazans the water they need?
edit: I think my question was unclear here. I understand the obvious answers which are basically: Hamas/Gaza are terrorists. Of course Egypt doesn't want them. What I'm asking for is for somebody to steelman the liberal position that Gaza is an "open air prison" and that this is Israel's fault.
Are the Egyptians the occupying power of Gaza? No, they're not. It's not their problem, Gaza are foreigners. If they were administrating military vs civilian laws in Gaza, overseeing policing and so on of Gaza, bombing power plants, then it would be their problem and their responsibility.
You're not in prison if your neighbour says 'trespassers will be shot'. You're in prison if the people in control of your land, Israel, use military occupation and various heavy-handed tactics such as a sea, air and land blockade, which they do. The Egyptians also have policies against trade with Gaza but they don't control its borders or territory!
Israel isn't occupying Gaza either. They're occupying the West bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
And? We all acknowledge that Israel is blockading Gaza (with Egypt's cooperation). You can argue that constitutes an "occupation" if you like, but you were talking about administering laws and overseeing policing. Israel is not doing that in Gaza.
OK, administering laws is a bit of a whitewash, my error. If the Israelis don't like someone in Gaza, they'll drop a 1-tonne bomb on them, or reduce food, water and power supplies to the whole population as collective punishment. Or they'll shoot unarmed protestors several hundred metres within the fence. That's not quite what people mean by policing either, in a meaningful sense.
In other parts of the thread people are wondering why it's called an open-air prison...
Sure - but then we go back to the original question you were responding to. If Gaza is a prison, doesn't that make Egypt their co-jailors?
Who is the occupying power again? Not Egypt, Israel. Even the US state department admits this.
But again - Israel is not occupying Gaza in any sense that Egypt is not also doing so.
Israel is keeping their borders shut - so is Egypt.
Israel is restricting the flow of goods into Gaza - so is Egypt.
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