naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Is anyone else here pretty shocked by many on the Left's support of Hamas after these attacks? I'm not talking Biden type people on the Left, but DSA type leftists who support "The Squad". They are more or less saying that Israel deserved this. I really don't understand how you can see a bunch of men slaughter innocent civilians at a music festival, kill innocent civilians just going about their day, capture women and children as hostages, and parade dead bodies around on trucks and upload it to social media and not have sympathy for Israelis. Yet these people are more or less saying Israel deserved this and the real victims of this will be Palestine.
I don't think this is a strawman either. If you go on reddit or Twitter you will see this sentiment. I guess this is the inevitable outcome of the oppressor/oppressed decolonize framework so many of them have adopted. This is pretty blackpilling for me because I would have thought an action like this could shake them out of their biased worldview, but this has actually seemed to do the opposite and make them hate Israel more. It's also pretty unfortunate we have to share a country with these kinds of people and they can vote. I'm not saying you need to love Israel and can't be critical of it, but what happened is to me pretty obviously evil and barbaric, and a lot of people are making excuses for it.
By “feelings of inferiority” we mean not only inferiority
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Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist’s real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.
This is a convenient explanation, but one should always be skeptical of any description of their enemies that boils down to "they're jealous". It's not impossible, but you're gonna miss a lot. For all that leftists do this, it should be considered that they expect better of Western civilization. In the same vein that an adult is held to different standards vs. children, the social critic holds his society to be able to do better than this enemies.
There is obviously a debate to be had over whether their standards are perfect or not, but you do yourself a disservice if you boil your opponent's arguments down to "seethe more".
For all that leftists do this, it should be considered that they expect better of Western civilization. In the same vein that an adult is held to different standards vs. children, the social critic holds his society to be able to do better than this enemies.
People do not, in general, believe children should have all the same rights and privileges as adults. The pro-Palestinian left at the same time argues that the Palestinians deserve self-determination and a homeland and to be treated as a nation, but at the same time holds them to no standards at all. This is not "I hold my ingroup to higher standards"; you see that more often from conservatives. It's "I favor the Palestinian cause, therefore whatever they do is OK and whatever Israel does is wrong".
People do not, in general, believe children should have all the same rights and privileges as adults.
This isn't totally accurate. Freddie DeBoer argues that Israel is the more powerful of the two, so it has the moral obligation to do better and fix the situation. Palestine can't, Israel won't, or so it goes. I don't think he's lying when he says there are leftists who think like him.
Obviously, the people mentioned in the top-level comment are the ones that rile people up. The people who say that no Israeli is a civilian, that all settlers are inherently oppressors, etc. These people are largely unserious in how they approach the question, but it's worth noting that there is no incoherence in noting two things:
Israel's colonization of Palestinian land is wrong.
Hamas is an immoral organization
and focusing solely on 1. Decolonization and liberation of colonies may result is great acts of tragedy, but there is a strong case to be made that it is still better to grant people self-rule and independence.
Scott Alexander made an excellent point in that people in general weight things by their connection in a person's mind to other things. So Palestine links to decolonization links to anti-fascism, etc. So they will immediately load a frame of mind that Hamas is obviously moral to do those things, because it links to "Free Palestine". Thus the need to defend the immoral things done in the name of that freedom.
This is hardly an original or flattering take, but "leftists are people and people are irrational" is more accurate than "leftists hate the West and success"
This isn't totally accurate. Freddie DeBoer argues that Israel is the more powerful of the two, so it has the moral obligation to do better and fix the situation.
But without treating the Palestinians as second class in any way. And that basically can't be done.
and focusing solely on 1. Decolonization and liberation of colonies may result is great acts of tragedy, but there is a strong case to be made that it is still better to grant people self-rule and independence.
If you believe that "Israel's colonization of Palestinian land is wrong" and should be corrected, it follows from this that you're in favor of the state of Israel ceasing to exist and the Jews all either going someplace else or also ceasing to exist. This is obviously not something the state of Israel will ever agree to, so from their perspective, if you believe this you are just an irreconcilable enemy.
Serious leftists are going to probably talk about a two-state solution. No end to Israel, but it would have to roll back to some historical borders. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Israel can't do this w/o treating Palestinians as second-class.
3) Israel fights back, wins, we're back where we started.
or
3) Israel loses, Jews are expelled or killed.
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Israel can't do this w/o treating Palestinians as second-class.
If Israel's obligation to "fix the situation" derives from it being the more powerful of the two, it will have to override the wishes of the Palestinians, treating them as lesser. If they do not do that, they cannot take advantage of being more powerful.
We're not back to where we started. One of the biggest issues other nations and people have with Israel is its encroachment on and control over Palestinian land and whatnot. A two-state solution would go a long way to neutering this complaint about it. Moreover, Israel would still be a military powerhouse with backing from the US of all allies. War might be inevitable, but military gear tends to be expensive, and it's not like Israel can't innovate to use low-cost solutions either.
War leaves a sour taste in people's mouths, and "Israel is our neighbor that we hate" generates far less antagonism than "Israel is the active oppressor of our people".
If Israel's obligation to "fix the situation" derives from it being the more powerful of the two, it will have to override the wishes of the Palestinians, treating them as lesser. If they do not do that, they cannot take advantage of being more powerful.
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Notes -
Is anyone else here pretty shocked by many on the Left's support of Hamas after these attacks? I'm not talking Biden type people on the Left, but DSA type leftists who support "The Squad". They are more or less saying that Israel deserved this. I really don't understand how you can see a bunch of men slaughter innocent civilians at a music festival, kill innocent civilians just going about their day, capture women and children as hostages, and parade dead bodies around on trucks and upload it to social media and not have sympathy for Israelis. Yet these people are more or less saying Israel deserved this and the real victims of this will be Palestine.
I don't think this is a strawman either. If you go on reddit or Twitter you will see this sentiment. I guess this is the inevitable outcome of the oppressor/oppressed decolonize framework so many of them have adopted. This is pretty blackpilling for me because I would have thought an action like this could shake them out of their biased worldview, but this has actually seemed to do the opposite and make them hate Israel more. It's also pretty unfortunate we have to share a country with these kinds of people and they can vote. I'm not saying you need to love Israel and can't be critical of it, but what happened is to me pretty obviously evil and barbaric, and a lot of people are making excuses for it.
From Industrial Society and Its Future.
This is a convenient explanation, but one should always be skeptical of any description of their enemies that boils down to "they're jealous". It's not impossible, but you're gonna miss a lot. For all that leftists do this, it should be considered that they expect better of Western civilization. In the same vein that an adult is held to different standards vs. children, the social critic holds his society to be able to do better than this enemies.
There is obviously a debate to be had over whether their standards are perfect or not, but you do yourself a disservice if you boil your opponent's arguments down to "seethe more".
People do not, in general, believe children should have all the same rights and privileges as adults. The pro-Palestinian left at the same time argues that the Palestinians deserve self-determination and a homeland and to be treated as a nation, but at the same time holds them to no standards at all. This is not "I hold my ingroup to higher standards"; you see that more often from conservatives. It's "I favor the Palestinian cause, therefore whatever they do is OK and whatever Israel does is wrong".
This isn't totally accurate. Freddie DeBoer argues that Israel is the more powerful of the two, so it has the moral obligation to do better and fix the situation. Palestine can't, Israel won't, or so it goes. I don't think he's lying when he says there are leftists who think like him.
Obviously, the people mentioned in the top-level comment are the ones that rile people up. The people who say that no Israeli is a civilian, that all settlers are inherently oppressors, etc. These people are largely unserious in how they approach the question, but it's worth noting that there is no incoherence in noting two things:
and focusing solely on 1. Decolonization and liberation of colonies may result is great acts of tragedy, but there is a strong case to be made that it is still better to grant people self-rule and independence.
Scott Alexander made an excellent point in that people in general weight things by their connection in a person's mind to other things. So Palestine links to decolonization links to anti-fascism, etc. So they will immediately load a frame of mind that Hamas is obviously moral to do those things, because it links to "Free Palestine". Thus the need to defend the immoral things done in the name of that freedom.
This is hardly an original or flattering take, but "leftists are people and people are irrational" is more accurate than "leftists hate the West and success"
But without treating the Palestinians as second class in any way. And that basically can't be done.
If you believe that "Israel's colonization of Palestinian land is wrong" and should be corrected, it follows from this that you're in favor of the state of Israel ceasing to exist and the Jews all either going someplace else or also ceasing to exist. This is obviously not something the state of Israel will ever agree to, so from their perspective, if you believe this you are just an irreconcilable enemy.
Serious leftists are going to probably talk about a two-state solution. No end to Israel, but it would have to roll back to some historical borders. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Israel can't do this w/o treating Palestinians as second-class.
Two state solution goes like this:
1) Two states are set up
2) Arab state attacks Israel
3) Israel fights back, wins, we're back where we started.
or
3) Israel loses, Jews are expelled or killed.
If Israel's obligation to "fix the situation" derives from it being the more powerful of the two, it will have to override the wishes of the Palestinians, treating them as lesser. If they do not do that, they cannot take advantage of being more powerful.
We're not back to where we started. One of the biggest issues other nations and people have with Israel is its encroachment on and control over Palestinian land and whatnot. A two-state solution would go a long way to neutering this complaint about it. Moreover, Israel would still be a military powerhouse with backing from the US of all allies. War might be inevitable, but military gear tends to be expensive, and it's not like Israel can't innovate to use low-cost solutions either.
War leaves a sour taste in people's mouths, and "Israel is our neighbor that we hate" generates far less antagonism than "Israel is the active oppressor of our people".
No, I don't see how that's the case.
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