naraburns nihil supernum
2yr ago
(text post)
31248 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Is anyone else here pretty shocked by many on the Left's support of Hamas after these attacks? I'm not talking Biden type people on the Left, but DSA type leftists who support "The Squad". They are more or less saying that Israel deserved this. I really don't understand how you can see a bunch of men slaughter innocent civilians at a music festival, kill innocent civilians just going about their day, capture women and children as hostages, and parade dead bodies around on trucks and upload it to social media and not have sympathy for Israelis. Yet these people are more or less saying Israel deserved this and the real victims of this will be Palestine.
I don't think this is a strawman either. If you go on reddit or Twitter you will see this sentiment. I guess this is the inevitable outcome of the oppressor/oppressed decolonize framework so many of them have adopted. This is pretty blackpilling for me because I would have thought an action like this could shake them out of their biased worldview, but this has actually seemed to do the opposite and make them hate Israel more. It's also pretty unfortunate we have to share a country with these kinds of people and they can vote. I'm not saying you need to love Israel and can't be critical of it, but what happened is to me pretty obviously evil and barbaric, and a lot of people are making excuses for it.
Is anyone else here pretty shocked by many on the Left's support of Hamas after these attacks?
Not really no.
Walter Duranty of the New York Times famously praised Stalin's purges and Mao's Great Leap Forward lamenting the fact that the government of the US under Roosevelt and Truman lacked a similar vision and will to power.
Likeiwse, from radical Marxist railing against "bankers" in the 50 and 60s to incidents like the Crown Hill Riots in the 80s and 90s to the BDS movement of the 2000s and today there's always been a pretty strong undercurrent of anti-Jewish, and anti-Isreal sentiment in particular within the US progressive movement. This sort of thing is just par for the course
Did Duranty praise the purges as they occurred, or did he just praise some sanitized version of them that he credulously swallowed? Honest question; after learning about his shameful Pulitzer I've never been motivated to seek out his later reporting.
Though I'm not at all a fan of the man, even with his most damnable reporting I know about, the thesis was "there's no Holodomor", never "the Holodomor is totally awesome!" I know the Law of Merited Impossibility ("it'll never happen, and when it does you'll deserve it") is a thing, but humanity isn't universally that awful, so I think it's still a huge disappointment when someone transitions from the first to the second half rather than properly reexamining their beliefs instead. Not every mistaken person is evil too.
Did Duranty praise the purges as they occurred, or did he just praise some sanitized version of them that he credulously swallowed?
That's a fair question to which I don't have a good answer.
He certainly praised them along similar efforts elsewhere, but whether that was because he was overly credulous or because he was a crypto-bolshivek has probably been lost to history.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Is anyone else here pretty shocked by many on the Left's support of Hamas after these attacks? I'm not talking Biden type people on the Left, but DSA type leftists who support "The Squad". They are more or less saying that Israel deserved this. I really don't understand how you can see a bunch of men slaughter innocent civilians at a music festival, kill innocent civilians just going about their day, capture women and children as hostages, and parade dead bodies around on trucks and upload it to social media and not have sympathy for Israelis. Yet these people are more or less saying Israel deserved this and the real victims of this will be Palestine.
I don't think this is a strawman either. If you go on reddit or Twitter you will see this sentiment. I guess this is the inevitable outcome of the oppressor/oppressed decolonize framework so many of them have adopted. This is pretty blackpilling for me because I would have thought an action like this could shake them out of their biased worldview, but this has actually seemed to do the opposite and make them hate Israel more. It's also pretty unfortunate we have to share a country with these kinds of people and they can vote. I'm not saying you need to love Israel and can't be critical of it, but what happened is to me pretty obviously evil and barbaric, and a lot of people are making excuses for it.
Not really no.
Walter Duranty of the New York Times famously praised Stalin's purges and Mao's Great Leap Forward lamenting the fact that the government of the US under Roosevelt and Truman lacked a similar vision and will to power.
Likeiwse, from radical Marxist railing against "bankers" in the 50 and 60s to incidents like the Crown Hill Riots in the 80s and 90s to the BDS movement of the 2000s and today there's always been a pretty strong undercurrent of anti-Jewish, and anti-Isreal sentiment in particular within the US progressive movement. This sort of thing is just par for the course
Did Duranty praise the purges as they occurred, or did he just praise some sanitized version of them that he credulously swallowed? Honest question; after learning about his shameful Pulitzer I've never been motivated to seek out his later reporting.
Though I'm not at all a fan of the man, even with his most damnable reporting I know about, the thesis was "there's no Holodomor", never "the Holodomor is totally awesome!" I know the Law of Merited Impossibility ("it'll never happen, and when it does you'll deserve it") is a thing, but humanity isn't universally that awful, so I think it's still a huge disappointment when someone transitions from the first to the second half rather than properly reexamining their beliefs instead. Not every mistaken person is evil too.
That's a fair question to which I don't have a good answer.
He certainly praised them along similar efforts elsewhere, but whether that was because he was overly credulous or because he was a crypto-bolshivek has probably been lost to history.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link