naraburns nihil supernum
2yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
To be completely clear, you think that absent persecution, a noticeable number of people entitled by law to live in Israel would continue to live in Lebanon?
Lebanon is not a peaceful society, and maintaining a large group membership seems pretty important for keeping yourself in that society, but multiple kinds of Christians and Muslims do in fact live side by side there, and do in fact have actual in practice equal rights there.
To be completely clear, you think that absent persecution, a noticeable number of people entitled by law to live in Israel would continue to live in Lebanon?
I have not said that, nor does that seem to me in any way relevant to the conversation. The standard set by the article was:
a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate
In the first place, "living side by side" connotes a measure of peace, which you acknowledge Lebanon lacks. In the second, the Jews living there clearly do not regard themselves as enjoying equal rights. "But some Christians do!" is not a refutation of any kind.
I do not know what you think to prove. You seem at best trying to pick a nit grounded in my paraphrasing, and yet even then you are doing it badly.
I'm mystified by this kind of response to my claim, which explicitly cribs the words of the article about "Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights." Suggesting countries that are neither noticeably diverse nor countries that are in any plausible way committed to equal rights does not meet the spirit of the original text. "Not counting expats, we have like, two or three different religious minorities in our country!" is, I grant, a kind of "diversity," but this is still not a cultural (much less jurisprudential) commitment to the kind of broad-spectrum liberal tolerance Westerners have in mind when they talk about diverse peoples living "side by side with equal rights."
"Lebanese Jews are afraid for their lives, but they do have Christians so technically they are a nation of diverse people living side by side" does not meet the standard of "Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights." And that's before addressing stuff like sex, sexuality, political freedom, and related concerns.
Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights
Jews usually have protected statuses in Western countries, with specific laws or law enforcement rules protecting them, social media companies having antisemitism-specific regulations and anti-antisemitism groups openly controlling their content...
Meanwhile there are anti-muslims rules and laws against hijabs, mosque building, honor-killing, etc.
It seems to me that it would be hard to say that muslims and jews have equal rights in the West.
Equal rights for Muslims requires respecting their right to commit honor-killings?
Well in a way it does if equal rights implies freedom to practice your religion.
I don't know much about the Quran but my understanding is that it's about a warlord who goes around killing his enemies and making their women his wives.
Meanwhile I think the Talmud is about a bunch of proto-lawyers bickering about different ways to interpret God's commands so as to not have to obey the most straightforward interpretation of it.
For example instead of staying home on Saturday as ordered by their God, they can claim the whole territory of NYC as their 'home' by creating a symbolic barrier all around it called an eruv.
Muslims who in my opinion have a more violent practice of their religion (as seen with violent bombings, beheadings, stabbings) are under a lot more scrutiny than jews who are experts at lawfare.
Hundreds of millions are probably spent to fight terrorism but white-collar criminals are more likely to get away with it, and some other types of crimes can also end up celebrated.
A few thousands deaths to explosive devices got us the Patriot Act and global internet surveillance meanwhile millions of death to opioids or abortion barely get any legislative action.
Tremendous efforts have been deployed to protect the general public from harms that can nebulously be attributed to islamic enthusiasts, while the harms that can nebulously be attributed to judaism enthusiasm have seen a great reduction in their quelling, from historical precedents.
As you yourself admitted, any problems committed by muslims in the West could also be blamed on jews:
If anything, the pluralist principles established by Jewish activism have benefited Muslims living in the West.
What we have now is angry muslims violently protesting in the West, clashing with native police forces on behalf of the jews who are the ones who made them angry, and who are the ones who facilitated their arrival in the first place.
If some far-left groups are now suggesting to make muslims a protected class due to historical abuse by people in power in the Middle-East (ie Israeli or British colonizers etc), and get their way, then perhaps the balance will be somewhat restored.
Until then I disagree that muslims and jews have equal rights in the West.
Or you need to clarify what you mean by 'equal rights'.
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Notes -
...how?
In July of 2020, Nagi Gergi Zeidan wrote, "Today, there are 29 Jews left in Lebanon — and they are all hiding." This does not appear to have changed.
To be completely clear, you think that absent persecution, a noticeable number of people entitled by law to live in Israel would continue to live in Lebanon?
Lebanon is not a peaceful society, and maintaining a large group membership seems pretty important for keeping yourself in that society, but multiple kinds of Christians and Muslims do in fact live side by side there, and do in fact have actual in practice equal rights there.
I have not said that, nor does that seem to me in any way relevant to the conversation. The standard set by the article was:
In the first place, "living side by side" connotes a measure of peace, which you acknowledge Lebanon lacks. In the second, the Jews living there clearly do not regard themselves as enjoying equal rights. "But some Christians do!" is not a refutation of any kind.
I do not know what you think to prove. You seem at best trying to pick a nit grounded in my paraphrasing, and yet even then you are doing it badly.
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Lebanon still has Christians, as does Egypt.
What do you think that gets you?
I'm mystified by this kind of response to my claim, which explicitly cribs the words of the article about "Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights." Suggesting countries that are neither noticeably diverse nor countries that are in any plausible way committed to equal rights does not meet the spirit of the original text. "Not counting expats, we have like, two or three different religious minorities in our country!" is, I grant, a kind of "diversity," but this is still not a cultural (much less jurisprudential) commitment to the kind of broad-spectrum liberal tolerance Westerners have in mind when they talk about diverse peoples living "side by side with equal rights."
"Lebanese Jews are afraid for their lives, but they do have Christians so technically they are a nation of diverse people living side by side" does not meet the standard of "Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights." And that's before addressing stuff like sex, sexuality, political freedom, and related concerns.
Which country would qualify this standard?
Jews usually have protected statuses in Western countries, with specific laws or law enforcement rules protecting them, social media companies having antisemitism-specific regulations and anti-antisemitism groups openly controlling their content... Meanwhile there are anti-muslims rules and laws against hijabs, mosque building, honor-killing, etc. It seems to me that it would be hard to say that muslims and jews have equal rights in the West.
Well in a way it does if equal rights implies freedom to practice your religion.
I don't know much about the Quran but my understanding is that it's about a warlord who goes around killing his enemies and making their women his wives. Meanwhile I think the Talmud is about a bunch of proto-lawyers bickering about different ways to interpret God's commands so as to not have to obey the most straightforward interpretation of it.
For example instead of staying home on Saturday as ordered by their God, they can claim the whole territory of NYC as their 'home' by creating a symbolic barrier all around it called an eruv.
Muslims who in my opinion have a more violent practice of their religion (as seen with violent bombings, beheadings, stabbings) are under a lot more scrutiny than jews who are experts at lawfare.
Hundreds of millions are probably spent to fight terrorism but white-collar criminals are more likely to get away with it, and some other types of crimes can also end up celebrated.
A few thousands deaths to explosive devices got us the Patriot Act and global internet surveillance meanwhile millions of death to opioids or abortion barely get any legislative action.
Tremendous efforts have been deployed to protect the general public from harms that can nebulously be attributed to islamic enthusiasts, while the harms that can nebulously be attributed to judaism enthusiasm have seen a great reduction in their quelling, from historical precedents.
As you yourself admitted, any problems committed by muslims in the West could also be blamed on jews:
What we have now is angry muslims violently protesting in the West, clashing with native police forces on behalf of the jews who are the ones who made them angry, and who are the ones who facilitated their arrival in the first place.
If some far-left groups are now suggesting to make muslims a protected class due to historical abuse by people in power in the Middle-East (ie Israeli or British colonizers etc), and get their way, then perhaps the balance will be somewhat restored. Until then I disagree that muslims and jews have equal rights in the West.
Or you need to clarify what you mean by 'equal rights'.
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