naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
This is catching my eye. Maybe more culture war than war. There’s a lot of canceling going on of people expressing antisemitism but I do think there’s a red line and the phrase they are using I would define as the genocidal anti-semitism. I do think social media allows for kids to do dumb shit and gets magnified too much.
The particular phrase is “Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea”. I wouldn’t have a problem with “Palestine shall be free” then maybe some kind of Gandhi type saying. That seems like normal do-gooder leftist that was quite normal in the ‘90’s to about 2010.
“From the river to the sea” sounds like straight up Hitler type solutions. I’m gonna call that bad. Whose indoctrinating these 15-22 year olds with this ideology. Do these kids understand the difference between Gandhi type stuff and Hitler? Is this me not being intune to tick-tock channels and the kids are just picking up a catchy chant but don’t really understand they are calling for genocide.
Well yes- how many of these people support some kind of land back scheme and how many just don’t get that coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians isn’t really an option?
how many just don’t get that coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians isn’t really an option?
100% of them, and they not only "just don't get it" they explicitly uphold and champion political ideologies which make "getting it" utterly impossible. What's the argument against a one-state solution with equality between Palestinians and Israelis that can't also be used against the multicultural societies of the west? To accept that coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians isn't possible is for them to admit that the political beliefs they built their entire identity around are irrevocably flawed and that they have wasted their life in pursuit of an impossible dream. Do you think a La Raza activist is going to accept that actually racism is good and the Trump supporters are right because a bunch of white people with funny little hats want to keep their apartheid state alive and healthily discriminating against brown people?
a bunch of white people with funny little hats want to keep their apartheid state alive and healthily discriminating against brown people?
Objectively this isn't true- while Ashkenazim are the wealthiest ethnic group in Israel, that's just at the level to be expected based on their IQ advantage, and most Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Israel is also not an apartheid state- Arab Israelis are full citizens and the Palestinians' own poor behavior is probably the largest contributing factor to their lack of international recognition.
Objectively this isn't true- while Ashkenazim are the wealthiest ethnic group in Israel, that's just at the level to be expected based on their IQ advantage,
We're talking about the left wing here - do you think "Oh actually people of colour are just hereditarily stupid, violent criminals so that's why they aren't doing as well as whites" is the sort of argument that they're willing to accept? Sure, this is the motte and we can talk about HBD openly and use it in arguments, but if you think that's going to be convincing to left wing political activists you're dreaming.
Israel is also not an apartheid state-
Let's just ask some people on the left their opinion on this issue! https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ Oh, would you look at that - it seems like they actually disagree with you here. In fact, they disagree with you so strongly that they have actually provided a short educational course you can take which will help you get educated on this issue and realise your (from their point of view) mistake. I mean, I have to admit that quotes like "Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them" sound pretty ethnonationalist to me, but maybe there's some factor I'm missing? There was also that time they got caught surreptitiously administering contraceptives to brown people, which is another policy the antiracist left is somewhat opposed to.
Palestinians' own poor behavior is probably the largest contributing factor to their lack of international recognition.
I actually disagree here for two main reasons. The first is that I believe that the jewish community exists - I can look at organisations like Chabad house who currently have a big page on their website talking about how members of the community can support Israel. At the same time, organisations like AIPAC exist and frequently make very public statements about their goals and what they're doing. So we have some evidence that there is actually an organised effort to change opinions on the conflict coming from the Israeli side. And as for their poor behavior being the largest contributing factor to their lack of international recognition... I really have to disagree. I've encountered multiple arguments from Israeli partisans that run along the lines of 'Palestine was never a real country' and hence wasn't recognised before the conflict even started. Furthermore, it isn't like Lehi(self admitted terrorists!) or Irgun managed to prevent Israel from being internationally recognised either. How exactly could the bad behaviour of the Palestinians in response to Israeli occupation reach back in time and destroy international recognition while similar behaviour on the part of the Israelis garnered the opposite reaction? I don't think it actually could have, which is why I don't think it's the largest contributing factor.
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Notes -
This is catching my eye. Maybe more culture war than war. There’s a lot of canceling going on of people expressing antisemitism but I do think there’s a red line and the phrase they are using I would define as the genocidal anti-semitism. I do think social media allows for kids to do dumb shit and gets magnified too much.
The particular phrase is “Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea”. I wouldn’t have a problem with “Palestine shall be free” then maybe some kind of Gandhi type saying. That seems like normal do-gooder leftist that was quite normal in the ‘90’s to about 2010.
“From the river to the sea” sounds like straight up Hitler type solutions. I’m gonna call that bad. Whose indoctrinating these 15-22 year olds with this ideology. Do these kids understand the difference between Gandhi type stuff and Hitler? Is this me not being intune to tick-tock channels and the kids are just picking up a catchy chant but don’t really understand they are calling for genocide.
https://twitter.com/theeliklein/status/1715002198550257918?s=46&t=aQ6ajj220jubjU7-o3SuWQ
My first assumption is that it's associated with the "anti-colonialism" of the so-called woke.
Well yes- how many of these people support some kind of land back scheme and how many just don’t get that coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians isn’t really an option?
100% of them, and they not only "just don't get it" they explicitly uphold and champion political ideologies which make "getting it" utterly impossible. What's the argument against a one-state solution with equality between Palestinians and Israelis that can't also be used against the multicultural societies of the west? To accept that coexistence of Israelis and Palestinians isn't possible is for them to admit that the political beliefs they built their entire identity around are irrevocably flawed and that they have wasted their life in pursuit of an impossible dream. Do you think a La Raza activist is going to accept that actually racism is good and the Trump supporters are right because a bunch of white people with funny little hats want to keep their apartheid state alive and healthily discriminating against brown people?
Objectively this isn't true- while Ashkenazim are the wealthiest ethnic group in Israel, that's just at the level to be expected based on their IQ advantage, and most Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Israel is also not an apartheid state- Arab Israelis are full citizens and the Palestinians' own poor behavior is probably the largest contributing factor to their lack of international recognition.
We're talking about the left wing here - do you think "Oh actually people of colour are just hereditarily stupid, violent criminals so that's why they aren't doing as well as whites" is the sort of argument that they're willing to accept? Sure, this is the motte and we can talk about HBD openly and use it in arguments, but if you think that's going to be convincing to left wing political activists you're dreaming.
Let's just ask some people on the left their opinion on this issue! https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ Oh, would you look at that - it seems like they actually disagree with you here. In fact, they disagree with you so strongly that they have actually provided a short educational course you can take which will help you get educated on this issue and realise your (from their point of view) mistake. I mean, I have to admit that quotes like "Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them" sound pretty ethnonationalist to me, but maybe there's some factor I'm missing? There was also that time they got caught surreptitiously administering contraceptives to brown people, which is another policy the antiracist left is somewhat opposed to.
I actually disagree here for two main reasons. The first is that I believe that the jewish community exists - I can look at organisations like Chabad house who currently have a big page on their website talking about how members of the community can support Israel. At the same time, organisations like AIPAC exist and frequently make very public statements about their goals and what they're doing. So we have some evidence that there is actually an organised effort to change opinions on the conflict coming from the Israeli side. And as for their poor behavior being the largest contributing factor to their lack of international recognition... I really have to disagree. I've encountered multiple arguments from Israeli partisans that run along the lines of 'Palestine was never a real country' and hence wasn't recognised before the conflict even started. Furthermore, it isn't like Lehi(self admitted terrorists!) or Irgun managed to prevent Israel from being internationally recognised either. How exactly could the bad behaviour of the Palestinians in response to Israeli occupation reach back in time and destroy international recognition while similar behaviour on the part of the Israelis garnered the opposite reaction? I don't think it actually could have, which is why I don't think it's the largest contributing factor.
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