naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
This is catching my eye. Maybe more culture war than war. There’s a lot of canceling going on of people expressing antisemitism but I do think there’s a red line and the phrase they are using I would define as the genocidal anti-semitism. I do think social media allows for kids to do dumb shit and gets magnified too much.
The particular phrase is “Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea”. I wouldn’t have a problem with “Palestine shall be free” then maybe some kind of Gandhi type saying. That seems like normal do-gooder leftist that was quite normal in the ‘90’s to about 2010.
“From the river to the sea” sounds like straight up Hitler type solutions. I’m gonna call that bad. Whose indoctrinating these 15-22 year olds with this ideology. Do these kids understand the difference between Gandhi type stuff and Hitler? Is this me not being intune to tick-tock channels and the kids are just picking up a catchy chant but don’t really understand they are calling for genocide.
I think most understand that the phrase “from the river to the sea” means the end of Israel, they just aren’t willing to concede to the second order effects of that being implemented (ie slaughter of the region’s Jewish population). They would say it means a single, Palestinian state in which Jews and Arabs would live together. They would deny that it would lead to ethnic cleansing.
they just aren’t willing to concede to the second order effects of that being implemented (ie slaughter of the region’s Jewish population)
The same was said by the Afrikaners who had a far more precarious position before Apartheid fell. It is easy to say in hindsight that such concerns were overblown but they certainly did not feel it at the time (hence the massive emigration once the system fell). I don't think genocide would happen (the world would step in) but I agree that ethnic cleansing á la Karabach could happen or though we may see Israel do it in Gaza over the coming months instead.
If we're honest, both sides view the conflict as zero-sum so I don't think there's a moral lesson here. Only who is more powerful.
I don't think genocide would happen (the world would step in)
The track record of the world stepping in to prevent genocide is not actually that great. If the world is stepping in, it would be before Israel is defeated.
I have no doubt that Hamas would do their best to genocide Israeli citizens if they had the power to do so.
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Notes -
This is catching my eye. Maybe more culture war than war. There’s a lot of canceling going on of people expressing antisemitism but I do think there’s a red line and the phrase they are using I would define as the genocidal anti-semitism. I do think social media allows for kids to do dumb shit and gets magnified too much.
The particular phrase is “Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea”. I wouldn’t have a problem with “Palestine shall be free” then maybe some kind of Gandhi type saying. That seems like normal do-gooder leftist that was quite normal in the ‘90’s to about 2010.
“From the river to the sea” sounds like straight up Hitler type solutions. I’m gonna call that bad. Whose indoctrinating these 15-22 year olds with this ideology. Do these kids understand the difference between Gandhi type stuff and Hitler? Is this me not being intune to tick-tock channels and the kids are just picking up a catchy chant but don’t really understand they are calling for genocide.
https://twitter.com/theeliklein/status/1715002198550257918?s=46&t=aQ6ajj220jubjU7-o3SuWQ
I think most understand that the phrase “from the river to the sea” means the end of Israel, they just aren’t willing to concede to the second order effects of that being implemented (ie slaughter of the region’s Jewish population). They would say it means a single, Palestinian state in which Jews and Arabs would live together. They would deny that it would lead to ethnic cleansing.
The same was said by the Afrikaners who had a far more precarious position before Apartheid fell. It is easy to say in hindsight that such concerns were overblown but they certainly did not feel it at the time (hence the massive emigration once the system fell). I don't think genocide would happen (the world would step in) but I agree that ethnic cleansing á la Karabach could happen or though we may see Israel do it in Gaza over the coming months instead.
If we're honest, both sides view the conflict as zero-sum so I don't think there's a moral lesson here. Only who is more powerful.
The track record of the world stepping in to prevent genocide is not actually that great. If the world is stepping in, it would be before Israel is defeated.
I have no doubt that Hamas would do their best to genocide Israeli citizens if they had the power to do so.
Depends who the victims would be.
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