naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
random bullshit: activist greta thunberg posted a picture of herself supporting gaza. sharp eyed observers noticed the subtle dogwhistle in the background of a blue octopus plushie, and she's been forced to delete it and apologize for this dangerous display of antisemitism.
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
yunyun333 6mo ago
I have a genuine question, because I haven't been able to find a reliable answer:
Is the "blue octopus" actually an anti-Semitic dogwhiste, like, anywhere? Or is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
I've seen the infamous Nazi cartoon, of course, and it's not unique, but octopuses have long been used to symbolize conspiracies. A fishy alien thing with lots of tentacles reaching everywhere makes a pretty convenient metaphor for any group you're accusing of being sinister infiltrators.
I have never before yesterday, however, seen the claim that blue octopus plushies, specifically, are some sort of secret mascot used by white nationalists.
If they are, I seriously doubt that Thunberg was aware of it and deliberately signaling her own hatred of Jews. So this seems a lot like people freaking out over the "okay" signal.
I also suspect that, just like the "okay" signal, we're now going to see actual white nationalists unironically adopting blue octopus plushies as mascots.
There is almost zero chance that the blue octopus was a dogwhistle. Greta is simply a very cringe person who made the very cringe decision that a frowny plushie would be the perfect accessory to her little bit of always-stupid intersectionality. Gaza is being oppwesed by Iswaew that makes me vewwy angwy ヾ( •`⌓´•)ﾉﾞ
Claims that the plushie is in fact a vital prop for neurodivergent people to communicate their emotions are so goddamn eyerolling that they probably reduced Greta's Cachet more than the incident itself.
But then, since most dogwhistles are bullshit in the first place it is certainly gratifying to see progressives fall into the same traps that they have been setting for the past 20 years. Greta has mostly gotten away with minimal damage, but the Israel/Palestine war has for the first time seen the cancel culture machine turned against progressives in earnest. Losing out on a position at a prestigious law firm is the sort of thing that used to be reserved for right wingers. I haven't quite grokked what it is about this subject that has caused such a reversal. Israel's current status as victims, maybe? Or perhaps right wingers are becoming more savvy with the weapons of wokeism.
is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
Pretty much, though perhaps not invented out of whole cloth. The situation is somewhat reminiscent of the 12-hour tabooing of the previously innocuous though perhaps slightly outdated term 'sexual preference' immediately after Amy Coney Barrett used the phrase.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
There's zero chance that this was an antisemitic dogwhistle. Greta is an individual whose political inclinations and beliefs have been broadcast all over the world and none of them line up with antisemitism. I don't think you understand politics well at all if you think that left-wing opposition to Israel is motivated by antisemitism. The limit of her antisemitism is owning an innocuous plush octopus toy. Nobody is "pulling the strings" to make a slightly autistic (not an insult, she has claimed this about herself) young girl buy a small plush toy. Children routinely purchase stuffed toys all over the world.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain.
Greta has no decision-making authority beyond her own personal statements. She is not some big leader - she was a symbol because she expressed political motivations at an extremely young age. She isn't some well respected guru or thought leader, she's simply a prominent activist. Do you really, seriously think that she'd have any influence at all if she decided to come out publicly and say "Hey everyone, I just saw a really well made /pol/ infographic, turns out I was wrong and the nazis were right - gas the jews now!"?
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle
The plush toy of an octopus is not an antisemitic dogwhistle, it is a small toy purchased by a child. 4chan has been breaking new ground in discovering and developing new antisemitic dogwhistles (like the OK hand sign and drinking milk) but not even they have managed to get to the point of calling CHILDREN BUYING SMALL PLUSH TOYS the new sign that they're antisemites who are already goose-stepping and heiling Hitler in their heart of hearts. This is utterly paranoid conspiracy-theory thinking that sees vast amounts of meaning in incredibly inconsequential acts.
directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Huh? Where did Greta do that? Can you show me the example of her talking about how Hitler was right and the jews need to be gassed? The sign she was actually holding in reality said "STAND WITH GAZA" - and there's actually a big difference between saying "I stand with Gaza" as opposed to "All the filthy juden need to be exterminated". Remember, people on the left think that it is actually possible for different ethnicities to co-exist, so saying that she stands with Gaza doesn't actually mean that she wants every single jew killed first. Indeed, the girl next to her in that picture has a sign saying THIS JEW STANDS WITH PALESTINE - if she's actually an antisemite who is directly calling for a final solution to the jewish problem, why isn't she trying to murder the girl next to her?
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
She did not accidentally promote genocide. A small plush toy was inflated into a fictional dogwhistle in order to discredit Greta after she supported the other side of an incredibly fierce argument in the public space. There isn't a single serious thinker in the world who thinks that Greta Thunberg is a secret nazi.
I don’t understand politics? I see people flying in on hangliders then machine gunning down civilians. Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
I then see opinion polls that Hamas is mostly supported by the residents of Palestine. Greta and her ilk then show support for the people backing hanglide and machine civilians. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer.
I mean I knew Jews having their hands in everything behind the scenes was a belief. In fact I’ve even posted here that I believe it is fundamentally true. (I just don’t believe in murdering Jews). But I’m of the belief they contribute a lot to society.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
Being autistic isn’t an excuse. Autistic people get symbolism. I’ve been accused of being on the same spectrum as her. She just happened to pick anti-Semitic symbolism at the same time she was backing a group with a goal of genociding jews.
Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
Greta showed support for Gaza. This doesn't mean she supports murdering civilians, anymore than an American talking about how they support the troops means they endorsed Abu Graib or the dropping of agent orange on Vietnam. People can support causes even if they disagree with the actions taken by other supporters of that cause.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
I don't think you're taking this remotely seriously if you believe that she actually supports genociding smart and successful people. This is a comical lack of charity and seems like a wilful attempt to misunderstand her and what she stands for. It isn't particularly hard to work out why left-wingers don't like Israel and support the Palestinian cause, though I suppose it is even easier to simply imagine extremely unflattering caricatures of those you disagree with. What do you actually think is more likely - that an internationally famous and notable left-wing activist is actually a secret nazi who hates smart people and is ok with jews being genocided because they're intelligent (presumably she isn't murdering her jewish friend because said friend is stupid), or that she's actually a left-wing political figure who believes in left wing political ideas?
But to return to the original point, we're talking about whether or not the octopus plush toy she had was an antisemitic dogwhistle. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think you've proven your claim that it is a signifier of hidden antisemitism in the slightest. I pay enough attention to internet culture that I'd probably know if a new antisemitic dogwhistle showed up, and I can honestly state that a generic plush toy of an octopus isn't one them.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
Greta holds favorable views of a population that contains a substantial percentage of people who have been shown by word or action to support or excuse brutal acts of terror against Israelis.
Greta holds certain unfavorable views about the Israeli state common among far left anti-colonialist activist types.
The TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush, which went viral on TikTok sometime before January 2021 [ https://sports.yahoo.com/tiktokers-using-reversible-octopus-plushie-174529042.html ] specifically for its utility in helping people communicate their emotions, is in fact a personal item that Greta owns because she finds it useful in communicating her emotions, and it appears in the photo for this reason alone.
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
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Notes -
random bullshit: activist greta thunberg posted a picture of herself supporting gaza. sharp eyed observers noticed the subtle dogwhistle in the background of a blue octopus plushie, and she's been forced to delete it and apologize for this dangerous display of antisemitism.
I have a genuine question, because I haven't been able to find a reliable answer:
Is the "blue octopus" actually an anti-Semitic dogwhiste, like, anywhere? Or is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
I've seen the infamous Nazi cartoon, of course, and it's not unique, but octopuses have long been used to symbolize conspiracies. A fishy alien thing with lots of tentacles reaching everywhere makes a pretty convenient metaphor for any group you're accusing of being sinister infiltrators.
I have never before yesterday, however, seen the claim that blue octopus plushies, specifically, are some sort of secret mascot used by white nationalists.
If they are, I seriously doubt that Thunberg was aware of it and deliberately signaling her own hatred of Jews. So this seems a lot like people freaking out over the "okay" signal.
I also suspect that, just like the "okay" signal, we're now going to see actual white nationalists unironically adopting blue octopus plushies as mascots.
There is almost zero chance that the blue octopus was a dogwhistle. Greta is simply a very cringe person who made the very cringe decision that a frowny plushie would be the perfect accessory to her little bit of always-stupid intersectionality. Gaza is being oppwesed by Iswaew that makes me vewwy angwy ヾ( •`⌓´•)ﾉﾞ
Claims that the plushie is in fact a vital prop for neurodivergent people to communicate their emotions are so goddamn eyerolling that they probably reduced Greta's Cachet more than the incident itself.
But then, since most dogwhistles are bullshit in the first place it is certainly gratifying to see progressives fall into the same traps that they have been setting for the past 20 years. Greta has mostly gotten away with minimal damage, but the Israel/Palestine war has for the first time seen the cancel culture machine turned against progressives in earnest. Losing out on a position at a prestigious law firm is the sort of thing that used to be reserved for right wingers. I haven't quite grokked what it is about this subject that has caused such a reversal. Israel's current status as victims, maybe? Or perhaps right wingers are becoming more savvy with the weapons of wokeism.
Pretty much, though perhaps not invented out of whole cloth. The situation is somewhat reminiscent of the 12-hour tabooing of the previously innocuous though perhaps slightly outdated term 'sexual preference' immediately after Amy Coney Barrett used the phrase.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
There's zero chance that this was an antisemitic dogwhistle. Greta is an individual whose political inclinations and beliefs have been broadcast all over the world and none of them line up with antisemitism. I don't think you understand politics well at all if you think that left-wing opposition to Israel is motivated by antisemitism. The limit of her antisemitism is owning an innocuous plush octopus toy. Nobody is "pulling the strings" to make a slightly autistic (not an insult, she has claimed this about herself) young girl buy a small plush toy. Children routinely purchase stuffed toys all over the world.
Greta has no decision-making authority beyond her own personal statements. She is not some big leader - she was a symbol because she expressed political motivations at an extremely young age. She isn't some well respected guru or thought leader, she's simply a prominent activist. Do you really, seriously think that she'd have any influence at all if she decided to come out publicly and say "Hey everyone, I just saw a really well made /pol/ infographic, turns out I was wrong and the nazis were right - gas the jews now!"?
The plush toy of an octopus is not an antisemitic dogwhistle, it is a small toy purchased by a child. 4chan has been breaking new ground in discovering and developing new antisemitic dogwhistles (like the OK hand sign and drinking milk) but not even they have managed to get to the point of calling CHILDREN BUYING SMALL PLUSH TOYS the new sign that they're antisemites who are already goose-stepping and heiling Hitler in their heart of hearts. This is utterly paranoid conspiracy-theory thinking that sees vast amounts of meaning in incredibly inconsequential acts.
Huh? Where did Greta do that? Can you show me the example of her talking about how Hitler was right and the jews need to be gassed? The sign she was actually holding in reality said "STAND WITH GAZA" - and there's actually a big difference between saying "I stand with Gaza" as opposed to "All the filthy juden need to be exterminated". Remember, people on the left think that it is actually possible for different ethnicities to co-exist, so saying that she stands with Gaza doesn't actually mean that she wants every single jew killed first. Indeed, the girl next to her in that picture has a sign saying THIS JEW STANDS WITH PALESTINE - if she's actually an antisemite who is directly calling for a final solution to the jewish problem, why isn't she trying to murder the girl next to her?
She did not accidentally promote genocide. A small plush toy was inflated into a fictional dogwhistle in order to discredit Greta after she supported the other side of an incredibly fierce argument in the public space. There isn't a single serious thinker in the world who thinks that Greta Thunberg is a secret nazi.
I don’t understand politics? I see people flying in on hangliders then machine gunning down civilians. Then Greta shows support for them along with many others.
I then see opinion polls that Hamas is mostly supported by the residents of Palestine. Greta and her ilk then show support for the people backing hanglide and machine civilians. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer.
I mean I knew Jews having their hands in everything behind the scenes was a belief. In fact I’ve even posted here that I believe it is fundamentally true. (I just don’t believe in murdering Jews). But I’m of the belief they contribute a lot to society.
Maybe a fairer representation would be she isn’t an anti-Semite directly she’s just fine with genociding high IQ successful people which a lot of Jews fall under.
Being autistic isn’t an excuse. Autistic people get symbolism. I’ve been accused of being on the same spectrum as her. She just happened to pick anti-Semitic symbolism at the same time she was backing a group with a goal of genociding jews.
Greta showed support for Gaza. This doesn't mean she supports murdering civilians, anymore than an American talking about how they support the troops means they endorsed Abu Graib or the dropping of agent orange on Vietnam. People can support causes even if they disagree with the actions taken by other supporters of that cause.
I don't think you're taking this remotely seriously if you believe that she actually supports genociding smart and successful people. This is a comical lack of charity and seems like a wilful attempt to misunderstand her and what she stands for. It isn't particularly hard to work out why left-wingers don't like Israel and support the Palestinian cause, though I suppose it is even easier to simply imagine extremely unflattering caricatures of those you disagree with. What do you actually think is more likely - that an internationally famous and notable left-wing activist is actually a secret nazi who hates smart people and is ok with jews being genocided because they're intelligent (presumably she isn't murdering her jewish friend because said friend is stupid), or that she's actually a left-wing political figure who believes in left wing political ideas?
But to return to the original point, we're talking about whether or not the octopus plush toy she had was an antisemitic dogwhistle. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think you've proven your claim that it is a signifier of hidden antisemitism in the slightest. I pay enough attention to internet culture that I'd probably know if a new antisemitic dogwhistle showed up, and I can honestly state that a generic plush toy of an octopus isn't one them.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
I think it can be simultaneously true that:
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
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