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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   27726 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 23, 2023

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Below, there is a discussion of the civil war due to Robert E Lee statute being torn down. The other main event of the day is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I would say as a general matter the biggest supporters of Palestine in the US are progressives. Progressives also hate the confederacy.

Question is can you separate them? The south was arguing for their right of self determination? Of course, imbedded within that is they wanted to savagely deny that right to blacks held in chattel slavery. Likewise, the Palestinians claim the right of self determination but their stated intention is to kill the Israelis (from the river to the sea has a meaning).

So in both cases there is a legitimate claim to right of self determination. But that claim is bloodied by what those people would do with such right and at least in the confederacy context that “bad thing” was enough to invalidate their right to self determination.

My question then is whether the right to self determination is properly thought of as as a right? If so, it seems at best it is a contingent right. If it is a contingent right, what contingencies are unimportant enough to “trump” the right?

Most (but certainly not all) progressives I've seen are careful to distinguish that when they express support for the Palestinian cause, they are not defending Hamas. There's no question that Hamas's goals include complete extermination of the Jewish people, they don't even pretend otherwise, but one can in principle support the Palestinian cause and Palestine "from the river to the sea" without also calling for a final solution.

Perhaps this is just a motte-and-bailey argument no different from the revisionist claim that the Confederacy was fighting for "states' rights". I honestly don't know and can't offer an opinion on what proportion of Palestinians sincerely support the extermination of the Jewish people, or see that as a necessary evil in the establishment of a Palestinian state. But in principle I see no reason why pursuit of a Palestinian state must require the extermination of Jews (or even just Israelis).

but one can in principle support the Palestinian cause and Palestine "from the river to the sea" without also calling for a final solution.

This is a flagrant example of sane washing/running cover.

It's the same Motte and Bailey bullshit where more milquetoast progressives chanted Defund the Police and All Cops Are Bastards, and when pressed, retreated to claiming they just wanted accountability in policing.

Burn it before it takes root.

Eh, the IRA wanted a United Ireland, many Catholics also wanted that. But I think you can support Irish Nationalists without supporting the violence of the IRA. And I say that as a Unionist.

The question is how much of the Palestinian population supports the murder of Israelis to get their nation and how many do not. Presumably some portion of their population is actially "sane".

The question is how much of the Palestinian population supports the murder of Israelis to get their nation and how many do not. Presumably some portion of their population is actially "sane".

The crux of the matter is that the latter isn't in charge of Palestine, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Well not really, most "sane" Catholics presumably weren't in charge of the IRA either.

That doesn't mean Israel can't target Hamas, and some "sane" Palestinians are of course likely to be collateral damage, but if Israel ever wants any kind of settlement that isn't killing every Palestinian they need to try (as much as operationally possible) to not turn more of the "sane" into more radicalized. Thats why the British u-turned on internment and the like.

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