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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   24891 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

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A man attracted to other men cannot become a straight man, but he can become a straight woman. Do the people articulating this view not notice that this is at least a difficult pair of propositions to adhere to?

"A man, who is born attracted to men, should be allowed to date/see/marry/sex with men" and "a man who is* born in the wrong body and should be able to transition to a women" don't seem contradictory to me, thought I do admit that they do seem in conflict.

Isn't the explanation: "both are innate, and should be allowed"? They are both a quality/innateness you're "born with" and cannot change.

If you can change your mind on these things, then they aren't innate.

Thus why detransitioners (and people who "decide" not to be gay anymore?) are seen as such traitors?

Some people are born pedophiles, they should still be locked up and at the very least heavily monitored if they ever molest children.

That seems unrelated: there's a difference between a partner and a victim.

I thought Born This Way was supposed to be about "can't you just not be gay?"

I think it's worth looking at the answers to that question when it's posed for other sexual orientations or desires. "Can't you just not be a public masturbator?" "Can't you just not be a pedophile?" "Can't you just not be a sadistic murderer, Ted?" If he says, "No! I was born this way, and I can't change!" then... well, so much the worse for him, right? Innateness is a crap argument for accepting a behavior.

One of these things is very much not like the other, as pedophilia isn't a behavior. One can avoid being a public masturbator by not masturbating in public. One can avoid being a sadistic murderer by not murdering anyone. How does one avoid being a pedophile? Not molesting a child is not sufficient. Not interacting at all with children is not sufficient. Engaging in sex you don't particularly enjoy with adults is not sufficient. Avoiding sex altogether is not sufficient. Saying "I was born this way and I can't change!" is a call for recognizing that it goes a lot deeper than simply "don't have sex with kids" and affects a lot of things that aren't necessarily obvious to people who only think of pedophilia in the context of child rape.

I don't think we disagree.

It's not clear to me whether we do or not.

All I'm saying is that Born This Way was never anywhere near the strongest argument for gay liberation. Acceptance of gay people and gay relationships should come from recognition that these behaviors aren't harmful and can indeed be extremely functional, personally fulfilling, and even prosocial, supporting stable family formation. ... Conversely, regardless of what causes attraction to prepubescent children, laws against child molestation should still stand.

There's an important difference between acceptance of gay people and acceptance of gay relationships, and similarly between acceptance of pedophiles and acceptance of sexual relationships between adults and children. Being outed as gay often meant losing your job, losing your social network, being subject to harassment or assault, etc, even if you didn't participate in gay relationships. Being outed as a pedophile (EDIT:) has can have similar repercussions even if you are never sexually involved with a child. The core of the Born This Way argument is that these desires are both immutable and not the result of a conscious choice, which I think is a very strong argument that they shouldn't have to hide those feelings simply to participate in society without being subject to such social sanction. The only way I think you can argue it was "never anywhere near the strongest argument for gay liberation" is if you restrict gay liberation to tolerance of openly gay relationships, which I agree it is not really relevant to, and ignore everything else it fights/fought for.

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