This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
AshLael
Just here to farm downvotes
5mo ago·Edited 5mo ago
Osama Bin Laden's "Letter to America" outlining his justifications for the September 11 attack has been deleted from the Guardian's website.
This is in response to a new TikTok trend where people are posting their reactions to reading it for the first time and encouraging others to - usually with either an implication or an outright assertion that Bin Laden was right. A sample compilation of such videos can be seen here.
For those who want to refresh their memory of Bin Laden's manifesto (and IMO it's completely indefensible for the Guardian to have removed it), an archived version is here. He lists a litany of grievances against the crimes and perversions of the west (amusingly including Clinton's blowjob), but the first and most dominant one - and the one that I expect has led to this rekindled interest - is of course America's support for Israel. He describes the creation and continuation of Israel as "one of the greatest crimes". And of course he also claims that the jews control America's policies, media, and economy (while claiming at the same time that the killing of American civilians is justified because America is a democracy and therefore civilians are responsible for America's policies).
So there we have it. Hatred of Israel is leading young online leftists to endorse not only the terrorism by Hamas against Israel, but the terrorism of Bin Laden against America. I'm sure this will end well.
I’ll come out and say it but I think Obl position is far more defensible than Hamas.
America did do a bunch of shit in the Middle East such as propping up Saudi Arabia which was basically a three way alliance between the religious leaders - Saudi Royal Family - US (guns and money). Lacking any direct means of gaining political control from those groups he was really only left with terrorism to shake things up. Hamas on the other hand just feels like a death cult that wants to see Jews killed. A political solution for Palistinians would have been found decades if they were had different beliefs.
I’m not going to say I agree with OBL beliefs but I do get somewhat close to a just war theory with him. Though I’ve come to a belief that on net the US/Saudi alliance was on net quite productive for all involved. The country is noticeably wealthier and more stable than others in the region. It seems to be that OBL chose the only conceivable military target to accomplish his political objectives.
I don't really see much distance between OBL and Hamas. They both seem to me to be primarily motivated by wanting to destroy Israel.
Like OBL throws in a bunch of other grievances too. He complains about the gays, and interest, and climate change, and nuking Japan. But if you read his letter and just objectively look for his one core issue? It's Israel. Same as Hamas, he just wants the Jews gone or (preferably) dead.
Osama's broader grievance-theme was about the loss of respectability/pride of the Arab-Islamic world than Israel per see, though there isn't much distance between them.
This ties to a broader theme in (generally Arab) Islamist thought which contrasts the golden age of the Islamic ascent (when the Arabs dominated the ancient empire of Persia, and then Islamists as a whole overthrew the (Eastern) Robman Empire, truly ancient and established major powers of the era), were broadly acknowledged as world-leaders in thought and technology (in large part from adopting/synthesizing/spreading the knowledge centers they conquered), and were the dominant military force that seemed to ever-advance on all fronts as the Christians feared them, but even the culture-shock of the crusaders were thrown back in a series of triumphs against the outsider... compared to the subjugation of the colonial eras, and then the present malais where the Arab identity isn't a thing of pride and admiration from afar, but with its vices of decadence, impovershment, corruption, and hypcrisy well known. There is a consistent thing of 'things were better when we were better,' with radical islaming groups functionally viewing/presenting themselves as radical reformists trying to correct a shamefully corruption.
I hate to oversimplify it as 'it's a pride thing,' but that's not far away from it. It's about self-respect as much as esteem in comparison to others... which is where Israel comes through, as the Jews were an unquestionable under-class, something that even the lowest Arab good-Islamic person was above, until Israel defeated the prides of the Arab world- some of the key leaders of the pan-Arabism when Arab identity-politics was at its height- repeatedly, decisively, and humiliatingly in multiple wars. If you read some of the diplomatic history from around the time of the foundation of Israel and some of the early wars, there are heavy and repeated themes and points where Arab states were acting out of pride and emotion, rather than reason/rationality/interests/strategy. Politiclaly, Yom Kippur War was more about proving the Israelis weren't invincible and restoring Egyptian self-respect than an actual campaign plan or changing the borders- hence why the Egyptians decisively lost the war, but were willing to accept the land-for-peace arrangement with Israel and the US not too long after.
Returning to OBL, Israel is the 'core issue' because Israel is evidence against pride, and the reminder of humiliation. Erasing Israel is about erasing shame, but the core/underlying issue is one of pride and self-respect which cannot make peace with what one views as properly inferior.
Or at least that's view, though the distinction may be irrelevant.
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Notes -
Osama Bin Laden's "Letter to America" outlining his justifications for the September 11 attack has been deleted from the Guardian's website.
This is in response to a new TikTok trend where people are posting their reactions to reading it for the first time and encouraging others to - usually with either an implication or an outright assertion that Bin Laden was right. A sample compilation of such videos can be seen here.
For those who want to refresh their memory of Bin Laden's manifesto (and IMO it's completely indefensible for the Guardian to have removed it), an archived version is here. He lists a litany of grievances against the crimes and perversions of the west (amusingly including Clinton's blowjob), but the first and most dominant one - and the one that I expect has led to this rekindled interest - is of course America's support for Israel. He describes the creation and continuation of Israel as "one of the greatest crimes". And of course he also claims that the jews control America's policies, media, and economy (while claiming at the same time that the killing of American civilians is justified because America is a democracy and therefore civilians are responsible for America's policies).
So there we have it. Hatred of Israel is leading young online leftists to endorse not only the terrorism by Hamas against Israel, but the terrorism of Bin Laden against America. I'm sure this will end well.
I’ll come out and say it but I think Obl position is far more defensible than Hamas.
America did do a bunch of shit in the Middle East such as propping up Saudi Arabia which was basically a three way alliance between the religious leaders - Saudi Royal Family - US (guns and money). Lacking any direct means of gaining political control from those groups he was really only left with terrorism to shake things up. Hamas on the other hand just feels like a death cult that wants to see Jews killed. A political solution for Palistinians would have been found decades if they were had different beliefs.
I’m not going to say I agree with OBL beliefs but I do get somewhat close to a just war theory with him. Though I’ve come to a belief that on net the US/Saudi alliance was on net quite productive for all involved. The country is noticeably wealthier and more stable than others in the region. It seems to be that OBL chose the only conceivable military target to accomplish his political objectives.
I don't really see much distance between OBL and Hamas. They both seem to me to be primarily motivated by wanting to destroy Israel.
Like OBL throws in a bunch of other grievances too. He complains about the gays, and interest, and climate change, and nuking Japan. But if you read his letter and just objectively look for his one core issue? It's Israel. Same as Hamas, he just wants the Jews gone or (preferably) dead.
Osama's broader grievance-theme was about the loss of respectability/pride of the Arab-Islamic world than Israel per see, though there isn't much distance between them.
This ties to a broader theme in (generally Arab) Islamist thought which contrasts the golden age of the Islamic ascent (when the Arabs dominated the ancient empire of Persia, and then Islamists as a whole overthrew the (Eastern) Robman Empire, truly ancient and established major powers of the era), were broadly acknowledged as world-leaders in thought and technology (in large part from adopting/synthesizing/spreading the knowledge centers they conquered), and were the dominant military force that seemed to ever-advance on all fronts as the Christians feared them, but even the culture-shock of the crusaders were thrown back in a series of triumphs against the outsider... compared to the subjugation of the colonial eras, and then the present malais where the Arab identity isn't a thing of pride and admiration from afar, but with its vices of decadence, impovershment, corruption, and hypcrisy well known. There is a consistent thing of 'things were better when we were better,' with radical islaming groups functionally viewing/presenting themselves as radical reformists trying to correct a shamefully corruption.
I hate to oversimplify it as 'it's a pride thing,' but that's not far away from it. It's about self-respect as much as esteem in comparison to others... which is where Israel comes through, as the Jews were an unquestionable under-class, something that even the lowest Arab good-Islamic person was above, until Israel defeated the prides of the Arab world- some of the key leaders of the pan-Arabism when Arab identity-politics was at its height- repeatedly, decisively, and humiliatingly in multiple wars. If you read some of the diplomatic history from around the time of the foundation of Israel and some of the early wars, there are heavy and repeated themes and points where Arab states were acting out of pride and emotion, rather than reason/rationality/interests/strategy. Politiclaly, Yom Kippur War was more about proving the Israelis weren't invincible and restoring Egyptian self-respect than an actual campaign plan or changing the borders- hence why the Egyptians decisively lost the war, but were willing to accept the land-for-peace arrangement with Israel and the US not too long after.
Returning to OBL, Israel is the 'core issue' because Israel is evidence against pride, and the reminder of humiliation. Erasing Israel is about erasing shame, but the core/underlying issue is one of pride and self-respect which cannot make peace with what one views as properly inferior.
Or at least that's view, though the distinction may be irrelevant.
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