site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Hi 👋🏾 I used to participate in /r/TheMotte. Are self-CW posts allowed?

subject: wokeism in tech, another wrongthink-ban incident

tl;dr - I recently got banned from the NixOS core community (including GitHub) as a result of a rather biased application of their Code of Conduct.

Here's the full text of my post including the timeline of events and analysis: https://srid.ca/nixos-mod

The steak is completely immaterial. They wanted a pretext and anything would do. If you'd set no header image and left it as a white background, they'd still find a way to get mad about it. Picking the fight alone is asking to be squashed - a better play would be to build useful parallel infrastructure and a network of supporters, then defend it from being taken over in a plausibly-deniable way (like how some establishments have dress codes because that's a legal proxy for excluding the riff-raff they want to keep out).

Picking the fight alone is asking to be squashed

No disagreement here.

a better play would be to build useful parallel infrastructure and a network of supporters, then defend it from being taken over in a plausibly-deniable way

Interesting. Can you elaborate on this? Has there been a track record of tech communities doing this? I know that DHH had to basically rebuild the Ruby community but he only did it after the Basecamp drama.

I don't have any good examples. Graham and Determinate Systems seem to be trying to do this with their custom Nix installer, FlakeHub, etc. If they succeed in making a better user experience, then the default Nix experience becomes de facto controlled by a corporate entity instead of the Nix project and Foundation.

Declaring an explicitly antiwoke project will not work: it provokes a reaction and gets taken down before it becomes entrenched, and attracts witches more than contributors. Someone wanting to do something like this would hide his power level, build things that people depended upon, and make damn sure those projects don't get subverted, and work towards positions of community power and influence. I don't know how you defend against hostile forks.

I don't know how you defend against hostile forks

The honest way is to make sure yours is better. A more effective way might be to take advantage of the reason for the hostility and spin up some sock puppets to cause drama in the forked community.