site banner
PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   25657 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 4, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Back when I was a smug liberal, I used to make fun of FOX News for saying there was a war on Christmas. And in my defense, FOX and Conservatives did a terrible job of making their case (which will become clear later why). I was recently shocked to learn that Hanukkah isn't even an important Jewish holiday. From WaPo :

It's easy to get the impression that Hanukkah is a marquee event of the Jewish year, falling as it coincidentally does right around the time of that other blockbuster December occasion and likewise seeming to revolve around presents, parties and recollections of a miracle long ago. The sense of Hanukkah's importance is further stoked by lively decorations, beautiful menorahs, delectable feasts and even, nowadays, kitschy sweaters and tongue-in-cheek competitions.

But as any rabbi would be quick to explain, Hanukkah is one of the least important occasions on the Hebrew calendar. Unlike major holidays such as Passover, Sukkot and the weekly Sabbath — all of which include extensive ritual requirements as well as prohibitions against work — Hanukkah is categorized as a minor festival whose only real decree is to light candles for eight nights. Everything else is custom or adaptation.

It seems pretty clear that the only reason Hanukkah is even celebrated like an important holiday in Christian countries is because it is close on the calendar to Christmas. From that same article:

That's not to say, however, that all the hubbub around Hanukkah is accidental. Its elevation to its current status in the United States goes back to the 19th century, when rabbis concerned about Jewish children feeling envious of their Christian neighbors realized that Hanukkah could let kids indulge in a joyous occasion around the same time of year. As Jewish historian Dianne Ashton recounts in her book "Hanukkah in America," the holiday's "timing in the midst of the Christmas season offered a way [for people] to perform their Jewish commitment through the holiday's rite and, for a moment, to resolve the ambiguity of being an American Jew."

The of course there is Kwanzaa, which is a made up holiday by Black Activists and the New Left in the 1960's. It literally wasn't even celebrated until 1966. It is a straight up made up holiday that shouldn't even be mentioned alongside Christmas and Hanukkah. I know this is not charitable but to me this is trivially true. I have never seen a single person celebrate Kwanzaa in my entire life and I am in my early 30's and have lived in cities with large black populations. So we can throw out Kwanzaa without any consideration.

That brings us back to Hanukkah, which again, is not an important Jewish holiday. This would be like if Christians in Israel started demanding if a minor random Christian holiday near Passover be given equal standing to their most important holiday. Obviously this is absurd on its face and would never be taken seriously.

I don't want to blame this on "da Jews" because secular gentiles played a role in this as well. In fact, they were probably the biggest drivers of this because I actually know many Jews who celebrate Christmas (more on this later). The argument that they would make is that they want to say "Happy Holidays" is because if you make Christmas a big deal it makes non-Christians uncomfortable. This would be one thing if it was still a very Christian holiday, but the bottom line is that Christmas is pretty much a secular holiday at this point that anyone can celebrate. To give some context for this. the Bay Area town I grew up in had a street that was famous for having an amazing Christmas lights celebration. People would come from all over to see the cool Christmas lights people on this street put up. This area also had a huge Indian population and about a third of the street was Indian by the time I moved. Instead of getting butt hurt about it, they kept up the tradition. Some even incorporated some Indian culture into theirs to make it look pretty cool and unique. Plus, a lot of Jews I know celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday and don't seem to have any problem with it. So I don't see how anyone could make a credible argument that as long as it's just Santa and basic benign Christian decorations that it makes anyone feel uncomfortable. But this is all subjective.

The number one reason why it is ridiculous to say "Happy Holidays" though is that there are literally no other holidays that are important during that time period for any major ethnic or religious group in the US. If it wasn't for Christmas, it would literally not be the "holiday season". It would just be a time close to New Years. There is no reason to say "Happy Holidays" other than to diminish the role of Christianity, even in its most benign and secular form, in the United States. In my opinion, Left wing activists used identity politics (Kwanzaa), "inclusivity", and guilt about the Holocaust and Jews (Hanukkah) to make up a fake "holiday season" so it wouldn't be the Christmas Season anymore. I'd love to see someone counter this, because I really don't see how this isn't more or less 100% true.

And I actually have a much better post I'm working on now about how academia and first wave feminism conspired to create the fake Wicca religion and the modern idea of witches. And if you want a taste, here is a good summary that inspired me: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7tz-PBkF720&ab_channel=GreshamCollege

That brings us back to Hanukkah, which again, is not an important Jewish holiday. This would be like if Christians in Israel started demanding if a minor random Christian holiday near Passover be given equal standing to their most important holiday

In Israel, Christians have the right to paid days off on several Christuan holy days. AFAIK, Jewish employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Hanukkah, nor on any other Jewish holy day.

AFAIK, Jewish employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Hanukkah, nor on any other Jewish holy day.

This is obviously going to vary by state and local jurisdiction, but my (red state) public schools growing up always had a holiday (at least kids didn't have to go to school) for Rosh Hashanah and frequently also Yom Kippur. It looks like at least Texas recognizes it as a state holiday (but that doesn't mean even state employees get the day off necessarily.) Florida seems to allow, but not require, courts to be closed on those days. Your mileage may vary.

Which state, and which district? NYC public schools close on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur for practical reasons: the number of Jewish teachers and students is so high that absentees will be extremely high on those days anyhow.

Yeah, the school district was probably a similar situation, but I don't remember any similar dates of convenience for, say, Eid, Diwali, or Lunar New Year even though those probably had at least as many practitioners as there were Jews in the district.

Which district was that?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats