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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   25674 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 4, 2023

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Back when I was a smug liberal, I used to make fun of FOX News for saying there was a war on Christmas. And in my defense, FOX and Conservatives did a terrible job of making their case (which will become clear later why). I was recently shocked to learn that Hanukkah isn't even an important Jewish holiday. From WaPo :

It's easy to get the impression that Hanukkah is a marquee event of the Jewish year, falling as it coincidentally does right around the time of that other blockbuster December occasion and likewise seeming to revolve around presents, parties and recollections of a miracle long ago. The sense of Hanukkah's importance is further stoked by lively decorations, beautiful menorahs, delectable feasts and even, nowadays, kitschy sweaters and tongue-in-cheek competitions.

But as any rabbi would be quick to explain, Hanukkah is one of the least important occasions on the Hebrew calendar. Unlike major holidays such as Passover, Sukkot and the weekly Sabbath — all of which include extensive ritual requirements as well as prohibitions against work — Hanukkah is categorized as a minor festival whose only real decree is to light candles for eight nights. Everything else is custom or adaptation.

It seems pretty clear that the only reason Hanukkah is even celebrated like an important holiday in Christian countries is because it is close on the calendar to Christmas. From that same article:

That's not to say, however, that all the hubbub around Hanukkah is accidental. Its elevation to its current status in the United States goes back to the 19th century, when rabbis concerned about Jewish children feeling envious of their Christian neighbors realized that Hanukkah could let kids indulge in a joyous occasion around the same time of year. As Jewish historian Dianne Ashton recounts in her book "Hanukkah in America," the holiday's "timing in the midst of the Christmas season offered a way [for people] to perform their Jewish commitment through the holiday's rite and, for a moment, to resolve the ambiguity of being an American Jew."

The of course there is Kwanzaa, which is a made up holiday by Black Activists and the New Left in the 1960's. It literally wasn't even celebrated until 1966. It is a straight up made up holiday that shouldn't even be mentioned alongside Christmas and Hanukkah. I know this is not charitable but to me this is trivially true. I have never seen a single person celebrate Kwanzaa in my entire life and I am in my early 30's and have lived in cities with large black populations. So we can throw out Kwanzaa without any consideration.

That brings us back to Hanukkah, which again, is not an important Jewish holiday. This would be like if Christians in Israel started demanding if a minor random Christian holiday near Passover be given equal standing to their most important holiday. Obviously this is absurd on its face and would never be taken seriously.

I don't want to blame this on "da Jews" because secular gentiles played a role in this as well. In fact, they were probably the biggest drivers of this because I actually know many Jews who celebrate Christmas (more on this later). The argument that they would make is that they want to say "Happy Holidays" is because if you make Christmas a big deal it makes non-Christians uncomfortable. This would be one thing if it was still a very Christian holiday, but the bottom line is that Christmas is pretty much a secular holiday at this point that anyone can celebrate. To give some context for this. the Bay Area town I grew up in had a street that was famous for having an amazing Christmas lights celebration. People would come from all over to see the cool Christmas lights people on this street put up. This area also had a huge Indian population and about a third of the street was Indian by the time I moved. Instead of getting butt hurt about it, they kept up the tradition. Some even incorporated some Indian culture into theirs to make it look pretty cool and unique. Plus, a lot of Jews I know celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday and don't seem to have any problem with it. So I don't see how anyone could make a credible argument that as long as it's just Santa and basic benign Christian decorations that it makes anyone feel uncomfortable. But this is all subjective.

The number one reason why it is ridiculous to say "Happy Holidays" though is that there are literally no other holidays that are important during that time period for any major ethnic or religious group in the US. If it wasn't for Christmas, it would literally not be the "holiday season". It would just be a time close to New Years. There is no reason to say "Happy Holidays" other than to diminish the role of Christianity, even in its most benign and secular form, in the United States. In my opinion, Left wing activists used identity politics (Kwanzaa), "inclusivity", and guilt about the Holocaust and Jews (Hanukkah) to make up a fake "holiday season" so it wouldn't be the Christmas Season anymore. I'd love to see someone counter this, because I really don't see how this isn't more or less 100% true.

And I actually have a much better post I'm working on now about how academia and first wave feminism conspired to create the fake Wicca religion and the modern idea of witches. And if you want a taste, here is a good summary that inspired me: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7tz-PBkF720&ab_channel=GreshamCollege

That brings us back to Hanukkah, which again, is not an important Jewish holiday. This would be like if Christians in Israel started demanding if a minor random Christian holiday near Passover be given equal standing to their most important holiday

In Israel, Christians have the right to paid days off on several Christuan holy days. AFAIK, Jewish employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Hanukkah, nor on any other Jewish holy day.

This is not remotely the same thing. We're not just talking about days off, but the culture at large. This is iconoclasm.

I assume they intended this to mean a reciprocal situation to the US, so, in the hypothetical the Christians are demanding that nobody talk about Passover in anything that could be considered general/public communications specifically and just refer to the time around Passover as "Holiday Time" because Saint Mark's Day falls around the same time.

Also the paid leave system in Israel is fundamentally different and more religiously based than the US model. From reading your link, it is just that all people get 9 paid holidays for holy days, and which days you are expected to take is broken down by religion (four religions listed, not sure what they do with atheists). In the US, Christmas day, just the one day, is the mandatory federal holiday. The vast majority of holiday time is private policy specific to an organization. I think this reflects a fundamental difference between how these counties view religious holidays that is almost totally orthogonal to the social engineering point the OP is trying to grapple with.

Nevertheless, OP's factual claim (which s/he apparently deemed relevant to their social engineering point, or they would not have mentioned it) was factually incorrect.

AFAIK, Jewish employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Hanukkah, nor on any other Jewish holy day.

This is obviously going to vary by state and local jurisdiction, but my (red state) public schools growing up always had a holiday (at least kids didn't have to go to school) for Rosh Hashanah and frequently also Yom Kippur. It looks like at least Texas recognizes it as a state holiday (but that doesn't mean even state employees get the day off necessarily.) Florida seems to allow, but not require, courts to be closed on those days. Your mileage may vary.

Which state, and which district? NYC public schools close on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur for practical reasons: the number of Jewish teachers and students is so high that absentees will be extremely high on those days anyhow.

Yeah, the school district was probably a similar situation, but I don't remember any similar dates of convenience for, say, Eid, Diwali, or Lunar New Year even though those probably had at least as many practitioners as there were Jews in the district.

Which district was that?

Christian (or other) employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Christmas or any other Christian holy day either.

In the US, most people indeed get Xmas as a paid holiday. For example, it, and all other federal holidays, is a paid holiday for federal employees, and I believe all state and local govt employees.

Yes, most people in the US with full-time jobs get Christmas as a paid holiday. But they are not entitled to it by labor law.

AFAIK, Jewish employees in the US are not entitled to paid leave on Hanukkah, nor on any other Jewish holy day.

If Hanukkah is during Christmas, don't they get that off as part of ordinary holidays? Passover would be different as it doesn't coincide with Easter all the time, but if Easter is a secular holiday (Spring Break?) then everybody gets that as well.

And then there are the purely American secular holidays, like Thanksgiving.

EDIT: Okay, I looked it up, and Hanukkah is a moveable feast because it depends on the lunisolar calendar, and follows the moon to determine when months start. So it's not a fixed date like Christmas.

So while it would be good to give other faiths days off for their holy days, it might be awkward if some of your staff were taking the first week of December off, when the official shut-down is for the third/fourth week (how long are the Christmas holidays in the USA?) If the custom has long been established that "This date is the date when we have holidays" then that's the compromise to follow so that you're not having people taking time off all over the calendar and trying to work out "Should Bill be working today because he took the twelfth of February off but we're shutting down for the seventeenth of March so it's not worth opening the entire factory just for one guy to be in, on the other hand the rest of the staff will complain that Bill gets extra days off when they have to work".

how long are the Christmas holidays in the USA?

Christmas day itself, but most offices are closed from Christmas-New Years, inclusive, and have a half day on Christmas eve. Schools usually let out sometime in the week before Christmas and start back up again in the week following New Years, blue collar workers generally work every day except Christmas and New Years. You're not entitled to any of this by law but only gas stations, waffle house, and (very ethnic)Chinese restaurants are open on Christmas.

Don't forget movie theaters, many other restaurants, and the major drug store chains

If Hanukkah is during Christmas, don't they get that off as part of ordinary holidays?

As you found out, Christmas does not always coincide with one of the eight days of Hanukkah. But, suppose it did? Why does that matter? You were complaining about supposed special dispensation given to Jewish people. If I happen to be born on Dec 25, would you complaint that I am getting special dispensation because I get a paid day off on my birthday, and others don't? I assume not.

And then there are the purely American secular holidays, like Thanksgiving.

Yes, and Presidents' Day, and the Fourth of July, etc. I don't understand what secular holidays have to do with anything.

So while it would be good to give other faiths days off for their holy days, it might be awkward if some of your staff were taking the first week of December off, when the official shut-down is for the third/fourth week (how long are the Christmas holidays in the USA?)

  1. I am not advocating that the US or anyone else adopt Israeli law. I was simply pointing out that your assumption about how minority religions are treated in Israel was incorrect
  2. Schools are usually closed for two weeks, but otherwise the only official holiday is Xmas day itself, and most businesses are open on the day before and the day after Xmas

I'm not complaining about a special dispensation; if it were decided that a particular major Jewish religious holiday was now a public holiday, or that Jewish workers could take the day off as paid leave, I'd be fine with that.

I'm saying that most places shut down for Christmas holidays on a fixed date, so trying to work out a different date each year for when a sub-set of your workers want time off is inconvenient. Now, if it's an all-Jewish or majority-Jewish workplace, I'd have no problem with them deciding "we shut down for Hanukkah, we're open for Christmas", and any non-Jewish workers there would need to talk about their own plans with the boss.

If you're living in a majority Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist nation, and they have their own public holidays and times they close down, you deal with that. You don't get to demand "I want my particular event to be publicly marked even if there are only 0.1% of the population of this faith!", though I think you should have the right to negotiate with your boss about taking time off for X or Y if it's a big day in your religion. But if your boss says "No, we don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day" then tough, you gotta come in to work.

though I think you should have the right to negotiate with your boss about taking time off for X or Y if it's a big day in your religion. But if your boss says "No, we don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day" then tough, you gotta come in to work.

US labor law mandates that employees with a de facto religious holiday are entitled to take time off for it, although the boss doesn't have to pay you. Employers can't ask for evidence of regularly practicing the religion in question(although I've had employers ask for evidence that the holiday in question is a big deal in my religion, they always took a wiki article).

I'm saying that most places shut down for Christmas holidays on a fixed date, so trying to work out a different date each year for when a sub-set of your workers want time off is inconvenient.

I was referring to your initial post. As I specifically said: "I am not advocating that the US or anyone else adopt Israeli law."

You don't get to demand "I want my particular event to be publicly marked even if there are only 0.1% of the population of this faith!",

No one has "demanded" that. It has happened because it is good PR for businesses to make all their customers feel welcome (and in a mood to spend, in general and at at their establishment). Moreover, why not acknowledge the holidays of minority religions? Who does it hurt?

The main problem is not "let everyone have a turn celebrating their own festivals that are all roughly around this time of year". The more, the merrier; Diwali seems to be celebrated around November which very handily links up with the American Thanksgiving.

So a string of bright events through the winter months is not a bad thing.

The problem comes in when it's "let's celebrate all these diverse events - except the main one. Your one. In this country where the majority culture was based around such main holidays." If you can have every holiday except Christmas, then it's not really "Happy Holidays", it's "Happy Not Talking About That One".

And I never said anything specifically about Israel, I'm delighted to find out that Christians there can have Easter off (though since it often coincides with Passover, is that the same thing?) I'm in agreement with the person who said the equivalent here would be somebody demanding that Israel institute "Happy Holidays" because St. Mark's Day is around the same time. I want Israel to have its own national holidays, even religious ones! I just want Over Here to have the same ability too, without people taking lawsuits over "they had a NATIVITY SCENE out in public where everyone could see it, I demand that be taken down because this country is not 100% Christian!" Yeah well the country isn't 100% Jewish either, but that's no reason for a human face-ache to go around demanding that any menorahs be taken down if they're out there on public land. Ditto with Kwanzaa symbolism, whatever that might be, and if the Taoists and Buddhists and Zoroastrians have any festivals for this period, let them have a shot at putting them out on display too!

Even the stupid Satanist crap, though I wish they'd be a little bit more original than just slapping Eliphas Lévi's Baphomet on everything. Though if they wanted to do the "radical socialist" version, I'd be intrigued 😁

If you can have every holiday except Christmas,

If you think that Christmas is not celebrated in the US, you are mistaken. My local Starbucks is playing nothing but Xmas music.

they had a NATIVITY SCENE out in public where everyone could see it, I demand that be taken down because this country is not 100% Christian!"

You are missing the point re that issue. If the nativity scene is meant to be govt celebration of the birth of Christ*, then it would be a First Amendment violation even if the country indeed was 100% Christian.

*As opposed to a holiday celebration.

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