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Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023

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The orphans aren't already in enough trouble?

I find most of the assisted reproduction creepy.

I'd rather have a 50% of being sexually abused as a child than counterfactually not exist, frankly. I think most people, if they were honest, would agree. This makes banning gays from having assisted-reproduction children ... extremely stupid, imo, and the morality that leads you to believe it must be prevented extremely suspect. (Its' still fine to think gays are evil or whatever, that can coexist)

This makes banning gays from having assisted-reproduction children

He said "most of the assisted reproduction", it doesn't specify that it should be banned for gay people. Personally I think it should be banned for everyone.

and the morality that leads you to believe it must be prevented extremely suspect.

Once in a while, when we talk, you end up saying something like "how do you not realize I'n far-right". This is how. I don't see how there's anything morally suspect about wanting to stop the fertility industry.

I don't see how there's anything morally suspect about wanting to stop the fertility industry.

Well you know what they say, the future belongs to those who show up. But you do you.

Once in a while, when we talk, you end up saying something like "how do you not realize I'n far-right".

Do you have a galaxy-brained take on curious straight's true allegiance? He may be a progressive heretic in far right clothing, but I'm sure his progressive friends would think he's far right, and that's good enough for me.

Well you know what they say, the future belongs to those who show up. But you do you.

Sure, but even if you're right, there are certain points past which I don't recognize the result as "having shown up". For example I sympathize with DaseIndustries Transhumanists more than I do with Bay Area Rat Transhumanists, but both are so distant from me that I can't see myself having a direct stake in either one of them winning.

But none off that matters, as the question was about morality, and this is not a moral argument.

Do you have a galaxy-brained take on curious straight's true allegiance? He may be a progressive heretic in far right clothing

Yeah my personal theory about how he showed up here was that some California Bluehair called him a racist, and he said "Very well... I see that I do not belong here... I shall go live... with the racsists!"

*** tappity tapity tap ***
t h e m o t t e . o r g

but I'm sure his progressive friends would think he's far right, and that's good enough for me

You can have him, but I don't want his views associated with me. They're like someone deliberately set out to miss the point.

But none off that matters, as the question was about morality, and this is not a moral argument.

That is the weirdness of such arguments. What will showing up prove? That you were morally right, that you have retroactively won in a hypothetical future none of us will know? It strikes me as the inverse of : 'in the past, we all lived in a communist pacifist matriarchical cooperative', but even less subject to contrary evidence. Ownership of the past and future need not concern us. The future is a foreign country.

You can have him, but I don't want his views associated with me.

Neither does the Bluehair. Are you going to deny him his identity and his far right card, unless he goes trad? If you object to his characterization of himself on definitional grounds, that's one thing, but if you're just gatekeeping and trying to up the social pressure as a political act, I must object under freedom of association.

As far as I'm concerned, he can always tag along on the road to Bremen, where we shall sing for our bread.

That is the weirdness of such arguments. What will showing up prove? That you were morally right,

Doesn't that imply that the Nazis were only wrong because they lost? If we're full-nihilist fair enough, but then it's obvious we're using completely different and irreconcilable moral frameworks, and arguing over any specific case isn't going to be productive.

Neither does the Bluehair.

Well, then let's just get him to identify as a moderate classical liberal (without changing anything about his actual views), or whatever it is you consider yourself to be, and then like I said you can have him, and everyone will be happy.

but if you're just gatekeeping and trying to up the social pressure as a political act, I must object under freedom of association.

Huh? Freedom of association means I get to gatekeep him out.

Doesn't that imply that the Nazis were only wrong because they lost?

Yes, in showing up ideology, goebbels was only wrong because he wiped out his family. I do not think highly of that kind of argument, I prefer moral ones. I'm arguing against the other times you used it, like a week ago.

Well, then let's just get him to identify as a moderate classical liberal (without changing anything about his actual views), or whatever it is you consider yourself to be, and then like I said you can have him, and everyone will be happy.

The thing is, by some definition, like the Bluehair's, I'm far right too. I'd probably describe myself to her that way if she pressed. Labels like that are just helpful indications for others, they're not some badge of honour The Party can remove to maintain ideological purity.

I'd very much appreciate it if more people could identify as some flavour of centrist, who can pick and choose correct arguments on a case-by-case basis. But the bluehair doesn't recognize that, it's either with her or against her - and I interpret your gatekeeping (and Hlynka's more extreme no-one-is-a-right-winger-but-me antics) as a similar stance.

Huh? Freedom of association means I get to gatekeep him out.

I see it this way: certain ideologies (the woke, religious sects, and now apparently the far right), don't want their adherents to associate with the non-pure, and that goes against freedom of association. The gates in an open society should be permanently open, and let anyone in or out. All arguments are free under a creative commons license and not to be bundled together in conflicting exclusive ideologies. So if he wants to be a far right utilitarian, let him.

Yes, in showing up ideology, goebbels was only wrong because he wiped out his family

And are you a follower of the "showing up ideology"? Because I'm not particularly interested in hearing your interpretation of other people's ideologies.

The thing is, by some definition, like the Bluehair's, I'm far right too.

Right, but you're not telling me I should follow your ideas, because we both disagree with the Bluehair, which is what I feel CA's constant reminders that he's one of us fellow kids right wingers, is aimed to do.

The gates in an open society should be permanently open, and let anyone in or out. All arguments are free under a creative commons license and not to be bundled together in conflicting exclusive ideologies.

I'm either misunderstanding you or vehemently disagreeing. No, I don't think Black Hebrew Israelites should be free to identify as Jews. If any particular person wants to leave a group, that's his right, if any other group doesn't want to have him, that's their right.

Feel free to disagree, but then you're not for freedom of association.

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