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Russian invaders Can value their own lives they are NOT my concern. And Ukranians are adults who can make their own decisions too.
Regardless on the “next leader” the current leader has always found a new and bigger country to invade.
And nuclear power doesn’t mean anything.
These arguments are always dumb though because anything Ukraine is just a repeat of yesterday because nothing has changed. Russia goes nowhere. Ukraine doesn’t go gain much.
The only thing that remains true is Russia hasn’t offerered terms any different than the terms we’ve offered to Japan in WW2. There is no deal on the table of “just the Russian areas”.
I have zero problem with a ceasefire today that came with security guarantees with teeth - nukes for Ukraine or NATO troops as peacekeepers.
Earlier today Maryana Bezuglaya, a deputy of Ukrainian parliament, ran some polls on her facebook.
"Only for men now. In order not to be mobilized, am I ready to renounce Ukrainian citizenship?"
Results (in progress): 74% yes / 26% no
"The survey is only for women. Would I be ready to become a military account with the possibility of mobilization to rear and defense enterprises (combat positions optional) if it leads to demobilization of those who serve 24 months?"
Results (in progress): 21% yes / 79% no
"Only for women. Am I ready to become a military account with the possibility of mobilization to rear positions and defense enterprises (combat positions only optional anyway) if it opens borders to men?"
Results (in progress): 15% yes / 85% no
"Only for women. In order not to be mobilized to rear positions and to defense enterprises (combatant positions only optional) am I ready to renounce citizenship?"
Results (in progress): 65% yes / 35% no
Yes, facebook polls is not the best source of polling due to possibility of brigading (which definitely happened - poll was posted in anti-conscription telegram group, where I found it). But the fact that a deputy is having this discourse, which is something I wouldn't imagine a year ago, on her public page is indicative enough of the public's concerns and grievances.
And the 'Ukrainian adults' you're speaking of don't have many options to 'make their own decisions'. If one doesn't want to get conscripted, here are his options: illegally crossing the border, while running the risk of getting spotted by a border patrol drone (oh by the way, they are planning to make a 5km no go zone near the border, I wonder why), paying a bribe to a medical professional/conscription officer/border guard (at the start of the war could get away with $2k for a volunteer pass that would allow you to leave the country easily, but now that amount could maybe get you a delay from conscription aka 'the conscription officer will close his eyes while you leave the building'-style, rates for better options now start at $5k), or have his wife/mother/sister do chores for him while he doesn't leave his living space, although that may soon not be an option since a few regions in Ukraine have announced plans for allowing conscription officers to go door to door to looks for refuseniks.
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I don't see any moral difference between a Ukrainian conscript or a Russia one. I think it's a sure sign of consensus building when some people are treated as subhuman.
It is literally conscripts who are dying. They did not make their own decisions to die and many would have fled given the chance.
What deal is the US offering? Surely if there was an effort to negotiate the war could be ended in a way to minimize suffering.
I see. Russian one is aggressor (yes, in smaller or larger part unwilling) and potential danger to me.
If someone murders people because they were blackmailed or something I have much lesser problem with them being shot.
Also, Russian soldiers can surrender, escape, emigrate, frag officers and so on.
I addressed this in a previous comment but you're asking for a level of moral purity that is impossible.
What percent of Nazi officers did that? What percent of Confederate officers did that? Answer: almost none except to save their own skin.
I would bet that if YOU had been born a Russian, or a German, or a Confederate you would have gone along with the consensus. Because almost everyone does.
Saying that Russian lives have no value because they are not the 1% morally pure is crazy to me. Now, Scott Alexander? He might just take the moral action. He gave his kidney to a stranger after all. But unless you have done something equally courageous, I'm going to bet you'd be just like the 99% who follow orders. (And so would I probably as well).
I have no problem with considering killing Nazi officers (or low level Wermacht soldiers) as a good thing.
In fact, in Poland we celebrate people who did this.
Maybe? Though notorious contrarianism is among my bigger problems so not entirely sure. Though even if I would end as SS-man if I would be born in Germany in in 1915, I still have no problem with considering killing SS-mans as a very good thing.
If "not bothered to escape/hide/bribe/surrender to preserve own life and avoid pointless murder" is 99% moral purity then I am still fine with them dying, like I am fine with SS-mans and Wermacht soldiers and Luftwaffe soldiers dying in WW II.
If I would have button that would cause random Russian soldier to die if pressed then I would press it all the day and hire people to keep pressing it while I sleep or do things that make button pressing impossible. And I kind of did it.
It's a logically consistent opinion. I always wondered about those movies like "The One" where a man has to kill all the alternate reality versions of himself. I always thought "I'd just be cool and not murder my other selves".
Now I understand, I guess?
I do accept the position that you want one side to win, and casualties are an acceptable cost, even if the dead are just like you. I just can't understand the glee in it or the certainty that what you're doing is right. But my ancestors were pacifists 🤷. Maybe its genetic.
I'd have more respect for the position if it involved personal risk for yourself and not just killing people with a button.
I kind of hope that alternate me would not be SS-man. And at least would end in air defence or other position that implies they are not horrifically evil. Maybe in rare instance of (likely ineffective) resistance.
I hope that in case of running into alternate me I would manage to cooperate and I would work hard on it.
But if alternate me would be literal nazi (and by that I mean "murdering and enslaving people" + "based on faulty premise" + "murdering and enslaving people like me"), then well, I would support neutralizing them, preferring humanitarian ways, but with murder definitely on table if other solutions failed. But starting from convincing them that being SS-man is a terrible idea on basically all metrics (except cool uniforms).
I am not pacifist, if someone directly and/or credibly wishes me harm I am fine with using various forms of power to stop them, including deadly force, up to and including indirect deadly force done by others at low risk to me.
Yes, if that would be needed I am willing to take personal risk. Though in case of military conflict I strongly prefer to be on button pushing side with minimal risk.
Well, Russia is kind of sensitive topic for me. In large part based on history of my region, country and family - despite having no direct personal experience. Note that I have no such problems with Germany as it is now. While Russia in 2009 run military drills that included simulation of invasion of Poland and dropping nuclear device on Warsaw (and did comparable or worse thing on basically any year of its existence).
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They can emigrate. And besides the war is popular in Russia.
If a person decides to be a soldier then their path is their choice. Even if their a conscript they can surrender to Ukraine. These options might involve some risks but they do have options. You act like they are non playable characters.
This kind of reminds me of those free range eggs where the chickens have a 2x2 patch of grass that they could theoretically use but almost exclusively don't.
It's a way for people to completely negate the moral worth of another person. Why didn't the Confederate soldiers desert? Why didn't the Nazi? If they didn't surrender, fuck it, they deserve to die. After all, 1% did the "right thing".
Notice, however, that this assumes there even is a "right thing". Had the Germans won, perhaps they'd be arguing the same from the opposite perspective.
Or perhaps in 50 years, any non-vegan will be similar perceived as a moral monster. After all, there are some people today who are vegans. I don't know. I just err on the side of not killing hundreds of thousands of humans unless there is a clear and obvious reason why it's necessary.
In any case, I think we're getting sidetracked. We should end this war for the sake of the Ukrainians even if Russian lives have zero value to you.
Does Putin? No, it's us, halfway around the world, that are supposed to care more about his people than he does. Well, if the abysmal performance of his army have now reduced that murderer’s threats to bleeding on us, let him.
No of course not. He is indifferent to human suffering. I am not. I don't value Russian lives 1:1 with American lives. And certainly not 1:1 with anyone I care about. But I do think they have some value.
Because maybe Ukrainian lives have value even if Russian ones don't.
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Ukranians have agency. If they wanted to end the war then they could end the war. If they don’t have political power then they can emigrate.
To be honest I always take views like yours as a desire to see the US regime to lose and not some real belief that it isn’t a good fight and the care for a Ukranians is just a justification for seeing team pride lose in the Us.
Completely wrong. I am a patriotic American. US values are better than Russian ones, and I want the US to win. I just care more about the human suffering than I do about some abstract strategic goal.
If you press me, though, I don't care about the war all that much. I care about the US much more than Ukraine or Russia.
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The men cannot emigrate. I do think the wide use of conscription morally complicates our assistance and wish they would not use it.
Not the biggest fan of conscription either.
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