site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

There is overwhelming evidence that aliens are here observing Earth, and have been for some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_UFO_videos

What if anything do you make of the fact that we are not alone in the universe, much less alone on this planet?

  • -43

There is overwhelming evidence that aliens are here observing Earth, and have been for some time.

No, it is not overwhelming.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What if anything do you make of the fact that we are not alone in the universe, much less alone on this planet?

First is likely true but of limited practicality as we are unlikely to ever interact, for second we have no strong evidence for that.

We have evidence that they observed UFOs. This is entirely normal as in "it is normal to fail to identify some flying objects". But software bug, visual artefact, commercial plane are all more likely than literal aliens. Widespread conspiracy is more likely than aliens.

Show me investigation(s) by say USA, China, Germany, Russia (feel free to switch Germany to UK, France or something, and Russia for Iran or similar) and then I will treat it seriously. Or at least official announcement by USA president about aliens, not mumbling by some faction. Then I can treat it seriously.

Sure, this is fairly easy – the USA has run a number of investigations, most (in)famously Project BlueBook, back in the day. See also Project Grudge, Project Sign. There is a lot of controversy/smoke over what exactly the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program was doing, but it certainly seems to have involved research into UFOs.

When it comes to an official announcement by a USA President about aliens, I don't have anything directly in this vein, but here's a former director of the CIA suggesting that UFOs might be "a different form of life" and the current and former Director of National Intelligence have suggested there is some form of advanced technology that does not have a prosaic origin being detected by US sensors. As far as Presidents go, Obama hasn't gone quite that far, but he does seem to take the issue seriously.

France has a very small official UFO group called GEIPAN.

The USSR had a UFO investigation unit during the Cold War. I think it's worth taking this with a grain of salt since from what I can tell the popular reporting on this is basely largely on hearsay, whereas in the United States there are a lot of now-declassified documents indicating at least some legitimate government interest (such as by e.g. Edgar Hoover). I believe there are also Soviet documents "smuggled out of Russia" after the Cold War ended, but I'm not sure how confident one should be in their legitimacy.

China seems to have a UFO investigation unit currently, although there is little known about it from what I have seen, and it seems plausible that it is doing it to keep up with the United States/get a handle on prosaic atmospheric clutter.

I don't think any of this makes the jump to "aliens" but it does suggest powerful and presumably rational actors take the issue of UFOs/UAP seriously, or have reasons to pretend to.

(I realize this is a very weird comment to drag one out of perpetually lurking, but, uh, in my defense it's not all that often that it's comparatively easy to make someone take anything seriously?)

Given that "UFO" simply means "Unidentified Flying Object" and not "alien spacecraft" it makes sense that major governments would investigate them. Not because of aliens, but because UFOs most likely mean "advanced aerospace tech made by our enemies that we want to know more about."

or "dammit, someone recorded out advanced aerospace tech, lets ensure they think it is aliens rather than something relevant to national security"

If I would be responsible for taking care that super-advanced-plane is secret I would prefer than anyone who managed observe it is talking about alien kidnappings. Maybe even drop them some obviously fake documents about aliens captured by NSA or something.

That's basically the plot of an episode of the X-Files. Mulder swaps bodies with a guy whose job it is to make up alien and other conspiracy theories to distract from advanced military tech.

That doesn't quite work, since in the show aliens do exist, and the advanced military tech may have very well come from them.

Well the series was never particularly consistent about it's lore/mythology, as much as I love it