site banner
zataomm  4mo ago (text post)   5356 thread views

Colorado Supreme Court Thread

Link to the decision

I don't know to what extent there are established precedents for when a topic is worthy of a mega-thread, but this decision seems like a big deal to me with a lot to discuss, so I'm putting this thread here as a place for discussion. If nobody agrees then I guess they just won't comment.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I'm not sure I fully understand the potential consequences for this decision - like, what are the odds that this decision will lead to some extremely bad outside side effects (like eg. armed protests, insurrections, civil war)?

I'm sketching this out, feel free to iron man, something like there are significant write-in ballots, they don't get counted, and as a consequence, the US sees organized armed revolt?

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like trying to prevent a populist candidate from running via technicalities is not the most effective option?

I think major violent unrest is pretty unlikely. My expectation is that the Supreme Court will make a definitive ruling one way or the other and Trump will either be on the ballot everywhere or nowhere (and if nowhere, then the GOP will successfully organize to replace him with DeSantis or Haley). No matter what happens some people will be pissed off, but they will bitch and moan and get over it without drawing any significant amount of blood. I could see irate Trump supporters throwing the election to Biden via write-in campaign that splits the GOP vote though.

If violent protest were to occur, I would expect it to be in response to Trump being imprisoned rather than because of the 14th Amendment issue.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like trying to prevent a populist candidate from running via technicalities is not the most effective option?

"No trying to overthrow the government" is not a technicality.

"No trying to overthrow the government" is not a technicality.

I read through the 14th amendment and thought this was pretty much cut and dry myself. However, after discussing it with my SO, there is the problem that he has not been convicted of anything yet. Also, even if we were to say "Giving Aid and Comfort" -- well, explicitly he hasn't given money or legal aid to them, right?

So, in a court of law, is there sufficient condition met for the man to be excluded by 14th Amendment prior to him being convicted of this? It seems the Supreme court would probably throw all these out on straight constitutional grounds, no?

If he is convicted, though, whole different story. No questions, 14th amendment excludes him outright.

As I've said previously, I find it completely implausible to suggest a criminal conviction is required to apply section 3. That would mean that Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee were not barred by it.

I’m of the opinion that conviction is sufficient, but not necessary.

It would be obvious that a convicted insurrectionist was ineligible, just as it would be obvious for an enemy general or president. Since neither is true in this case, we ought to pick some sort of threshold in between.

Basing it on a lawsuit is…alright, I guess. It might or might not have worked for Lee or Davis, depending on whether a local judge or jury corrupted the process. That’s not easy to avoid. It leaves me inclined to rely on a national-level decision for national-level candidates. Maybe for lower-level ones, too?

It’s a thorny problem, and I sympathize with the Colorado judges; they were definitely not happy to be in this position.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats