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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   25692 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 1, 2024

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Well let's be fair. This country gave up on me long before I did on it.

And no, I've got plenty of friends who are Americans, who are every bit as disillusioned with the country as I am. But I'm quite curious to know what the best self-aggrandizing vanity pitch for the US is, since it's one of America's favorite pastimes. I doubt it'll be any better than mine, which is also an abject failure.

I'm not in position to argue in favour of America's national idea. All I can say is that if you're looking for a country that won't give up on you, Russia would not be in my top list of suggestions. It is throwing men away to secure a meager buffer zone that I can't imagine actually being vital as we speak. I suppose you could achieve the authenticity of "fighting for your country" if you specifically immigrated to the newly occupied territories that are being fought for.

And considering the conflicts the US rampages across the world starting, it too, has little problem throwing away it's citizens for false ideals, against people who've never done a thing against them. At least Russia has the good sense to throw their people away defending their own borders.

The difference between what I know of how USA treats their soldiers and how Russia treats theirs is big enough that I wouldn't use the words "throw away" for both of them. This is without even going into the fact that Russia conscripts men against their will. US military recruiters might target the dumb and the hopeless, they might lie and embellish, but it's a choice.

Could justify it if "defending" meant "defending" as it did during WWII, but this? Hardly different from USA's "national interests securing" and "projecting influence". The only major difference is that USA's got oceans on both sides and Russia's only got one.

Conscription is by definition against a person's will. The only reason why there's any pretense otherwise in the US is because we've barely been able to get by staffing the military on a purely voluntary basis. If we couldn't, there would be conscription.

Could justify it if "defending" meant "defending" as it did during WWII, but this? Hardly different from USA's "national interests securing" and "projecting influence". The only major difference is that USA's got oceans on both sides and Russia's only got one.

I really don't want to seem like I'm insulting you here because I'm honestly not trying to, but are you really this dense? Even the foremost western scholars on the matter like Richard Sakwa fault the west for Russia taking drastic measures in securing its own national security interests.

If we couldn't, there would be conscription.

but there is not, so there is substantial difference between USA and Russia here (and elsewhere)

fault the west for Russia taking drastic measures in securing its own national security interests.

Russia being imperialist and neighbours preferring to not be in Russia is not West fault.

In the same way if France would get silly, started desiring empire again and invaded Spain it would not automatically be Russia's fault.

Russia is not entitled to empire.

Russia is not entitled to empire.

Empires are not given by some kind Santa Claus because you are good guy who is "entitled" to them. Empires are taken if you have strength to do so.

And, as we saw during the latest events, Russian strength is not as it was advertised. World's second super power just ain't so.

but there is not, so there is substantial difference between USA and Russia here (and elsewhere)

Incidentally yes. In principle, no.

Russia being imperialist and neighbours preferring to not be in Russia is not West fault.

No different than the Monroe Doctrine in the US. You want people to stay out of your backyard, stay out of others backyards.

You want people to stay out of your backyard, stay out of others backyards.

well, Russia should not have meddled in Ukraine's backyard then.

well, Russia should not have meddled in Ukraine's backyard then.

Quit having your dog come through our hole in the fence.

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The only reason why there's any pretense otherwise in the US is because we've barely been able to get by staffing the military on a purely voluntary basis. If we couldn't, there would be conscription.

And why does the US go at length to keep its military purely voluntary? If conscription is cheaper, then the answer can't be just "because it can", it could free up resources by grabbing more near-free manpower.

I really don't want to seem like I'm insulting you here because I'm honestly not trying to, but are you really this dense? Even the foremost western scholars on the matter like Richard Sakwa fault the west for Russia taking drastic measures in securing its own national security interests.

As a matter of fact, I haven't read all those books by "the foremost Western scholars", no, so if that's what it takes to be dense today, I'll cop to that. I have, however, heard of a significant bias Western scholars have when it comes to determining the agency of the west in world matters. It is always either the west's mission or the west's fault. I happen to think, based on data I didn't need a hundred politological books to learn, that there ain't anything the West did that "forced Russia's hand". Russia has enough agency to have culpability in this bloodshed it covers up with figleafs of "denazification" and "restoration of historical lands", and it does have culpability as much as one can ascribe common morality to machinations of state powers. All the scholars in the world are unlikely to convince me that TPTB can't go fuck themselves.

Russia could do better than that, too. It managed with Crimea.

And why does the US go at length to keep its military purely voluntary? If conscription is cheaper, then the answer can't be just "because it can", it could free up resources by grabbing more near-free manpower.

You must be having an argument with someone else, because I have no idea what half your points have to do with anything I'm saying.

I happen to think, based on data I didn't need a hundred politological books to learn, that there ain't anything the West did that "forced Russia's hand".

Yes, in fact they did, and this is elementary knowledge in geopolitical circles. Why do you think the Minsk Accords receive zero attention in the western press? (It's because western audiences that know about it, know that it completely blows up the western narrative on Russia-Ukraine)

it covers up with figleafs of "denazification"...

You mean like the Azov Battalion that explicitly defined itself as Neo-Nazi? That one?

Why do you think the Minsk Accords receive zero attention in the western press?

Because it works poorly as clickbait.

(It's because western audiences that know about it, know that it completely blows up the western narrative on Russia-Ukraine)

I am aware of it and it does not seem to be significant in this matter.

Because it works poorly as clickbait.

Facts that break the counter-narrative usually do.

I am aware of it and it does not seem to be significant in this matter.

Makes sense if you support western foreign policy. I'm fairly anti-war myself.

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You must be having an argument with someone else, because I have no idea what half your points have to do with anything I'm saying.

What, then, were you saying when you went on about how the US "barely manages to keep its military voluntary"?

Yes, in fact they did, and this is elementary knowledge in geopolitical circles.

From the link...

In reality, the United States and NATO bear much of the responsibility for the Ukraine crisis. Through a series of misguided policies, Washington and its European allies placed Russia in an untenable situation for which war seemed, to Mr. Putin and his military staff, the only workable solution.

Speculation on what was going on in Putin's brain is "knowledge", let alone "elementary"?

You mean like the Azov Battalion that explicitly defined itself as Neo-Nazi? That one?

See, now you're looking like you're insulting me. Yes, I'm aware that the Azov Battallion exists. That does not, in fact, make "denazification" less of a figleaf. Russian state propaganda routinely uses "western nazis" as snarl words to legitimize its actions vs. the West whether the particular people in question wear the swastikas or not. You're doing the equivalent of pointing out that the stopped clock is right at one of the two moments when it does match real time.

You initially brought up the point about conscription. Look at what it was in response to.

Speculation on what was going on in Putin's brain is "knowledge", let alone "elementary"?

Sounds like you never even read the preview.

... Russian state propaganda routinely uses "western nazis" as snarl words to legitimize its actions vs. the West whether the particular people in question wear the swastikas or not. You're doing the equivalent of pointing out that the stopped clock is right at one of the two moments when it does match real time.

Seems pretty hard to call it "state propaganda" then when they're reporting accurately.

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