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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   3686 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 7, 2024

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Does anybody else find The Atlantic's "If Trump Wins" issue hilarious? Just reading the titles and blurbs for some of those 24 pieces actually had me chuckling.

As a citizen of a small European country bordering Russia, I am a bit worried about the NATO part.

America's NATO ""allies"" fail to spend the agreed upon amounts on their militaries. They fail to meet their commitments and for some reason my American tax dollars are spent keeping them safe. The European "peace dividend" is me getting footed with the bill while they selfishly spend on social programs. Trump correctly called them out as failing to meet their commitments. His lack of politeness and poise has the benefit of him plainly stating the unpleasant truth.

I don't want Russia getting away with invading their neighbors. I don't want a return to 19th century and early warfare. I wish Europeans shared my attitude.

Europeans are by no means a homogeneous group. By "Europeans" you mean rich countries of Western Europe which are unlikely to be invaded and keep strong economic ties to Russia, like Germany, France, Italy or Spain (mainly Germany). But there is a bunch of CEE (short for Central and Eastern Europe) countries, like Romania, Poland and Baltic states which are fully aware of impending Russian danger and keep their military spending beyond the NATO threshold.

So we are in a position of conflicting interests. Western Europeans are reluctant to pay for the safety of their eastern neighbors, but they benefit largely from the stability given by the American umbrella. CEE countries want to fulfill their obligations, since they are in obvious risk, but stand little chance against Russia without NATO's help. Would you rather punish CEE countries for the misdeeds of their western friends, or give Germans free ride? Some statistics about NATO spending by country are here.

The war in Ukraine shook a few countries awake, but in 2014 only the US, UK, and Greece met the spending target. All other countries were content to free ride.

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2023/07/03/defence-spending-sustaining-the-effort-in-the-long-term/index.html

Sure, but 2014 was precisely the year when the threshold was set, so I find your comment very misleading. This information is very plainly written in the link you have given and in the link I have given above.

During the 2014 summit, all NATO members agreed to spend at least 2% of their GDPs on defense by 2025. In 2017, only four nations met the threshold: The United States (3.6%), Greece (2.4%), the United Kingdom (2.1%), and Poland (2.0%). However, by 2021, ten countries were meeting the percentage target.

In this link you can find all the military spending of Poland as a percentage of GDP between 2014 and 2023. As you can easily see, from 2014 onward, Poland has been seriously trying to meet the spending target.

Gonna be honest, I didn't read that part of the page. However, I think the key point is that the biggest defense spenders were the US, UK, and Greece. The US is the US, but the UK and Greece are not in any immediate danger of invasion.

Probably Greece spends so much because of constant tensions with many times bigger Turkey, and UK, well, has always been the enforcer of the European balance of power.

Probably Greece spends so much because of constant tensions with many times bigger Turkey, and UK, well, has always been the enforcer of the European balance of power.

Also the UK is committed to maintaining a blue-water navy, which implies a certain ongoing minimum spend even when there are no threats on the horizon - a blue-water navy isn't something you can spin up in a decade. The British army is vestigial, but the UK has a very long history of successfully keeping its military tradition intact when the army shrinks to a vestigial size during peacetime and rolling it out again when the army expands in wartime.

We tell the private who is made 2ic of a 4-man fireteam that we are teaching him leadership in case he has to take over the team after the corporal is shot, but the real reason is that he would be a platoon sergeant in charge of a toff and a soccer riot into a 2LT and a platoon if things kicked off.

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