site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 15, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I get the impression that I'm something of an odd man out here in that I did not go to college after high-shool and in that I never really thought of myself as being particularly intelligent.

raises hand for also being non-college, not particularly smart or capable, and firmly stuck in lower middle-class pink collar jobs - no, I do not have a 'career' or any sniff of one, so you're not the sole instance at least

The short version is that I believe that there are multiple basic human intuitions that are simply missing from the modern secular liberal mindset/worldview.

There's a guy over on ACX with whom I am having a (courteous! but frank!) exchange of views on "atheists need ecstasy" (and no he doesn't mean this but rather mysticism in a secular dress).

It's an interesting post on his own blog and I vehemently disagree with the thrust of it - that you can tidily snip away the religious nonsense and have a Gosh Wow Cosmic Sensawunda I Effin' LOVE Science secular remainder, but he's at least trying to address the dry and sterile atheist (of some sections of the project) viewpoint towards what you instance here.

As for the rest of it, I'm not a Hobbesian but yeah. Original Sin, there's a reason this was a winning concept. We're not lovely kind-hearted bonobos (has the bononbo ideal society thing been busted yet? I vaguely remember a while back there was some re-assessment that not everything in their society was as rosy as presented), we're flawed and fallen beings, and violence, greed, illness, and general "ugh someone should do something about all this" are part of that. I don't know the ins and outs of the Neely case, but someone in the throes of a schizophrenic breakdown can't be reasoned with or talked down from their delusions. I am not saying 'strangle the homeless to death' but again, I agree that this is the strawman that is leapt to as a misrepresentation of one's views if there is any deviation once the narrative has been set about the powerless, the privileged, and 'social workers not cops'.

Accordingly it becomes difficult to ignore just how much of liberal society (or what Scott would call "the Universal Culture") is predicated on assumptions that do not necessarily hold.

If I'm being bitchy about it (surely not you, FarNearEverywhere!), then there's a ton that they assume and don't recognise comes from being brought up in circumstances where there weren't worries about paying bills, sorry we can't afford a new pair of shoes this week so keep wearing the ones with the hole in the sole, and the rest of it; where college and a professional career were the natural path in life; where everyone was nice and you talked things out and nobody you knew ever got into a fistfight or had been attacked in the streets. It's that saying about fish and water. If they fall into the right age range and get the lectures about White Privilege, they may repeat such things, but deep down they don't really understand it, their notion is "well I'm white which means I benefit from systemic racism at large in society" and think about their privilege vis-à-vis the BIPOC and LGBT+ minorities, but they don't think about their privilege vis-à-vis "when I was a kid, I never even had to be aware of the cost of the grocery bills and certainly the store owner never came to our house to warn us about running up a tab and we needed to pay it off or else".