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Culture War Roundup for the week of January 15, 2024

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Our idea of withholding personal justice is predicated on the faith that our victimhood will be satisfied by a higher civil power.

And this points to a major flaw in all social contract theories. There's no remedy within the system for breach on the part of society. Self help of the sort you describe is verboten. The sole judge of cases under the contract is society's representative (called "government").

There's no remedy within the system for breach on the part of society

Except the very obvious one which Hobbes explicitly lays before us. the sword.

@hydroacetylene is absolutely correct, someone is going to keep order even if it's not the government, and one of the reasons you don't see as much petty crime in places like Nairobi as you do in say San Fransico is that it's effectively understood by all involved that if you are dumb or unlucky enough to get caught shoplifting you probably deserve whatever it is that the shopkeeper is going to do to you. Afterall, who's going to call the cops? The Shoplifter? If the cops are called, who do you expect them to side with? Some no-good thief, or an established member of the community?

ETA: If this sounds potentially cruel, unfair, or otherwise prone to abuse, that's because it is.

Except the very obvious one which Hobbes explicitly lays before us. the sword.

That's not "within the system". That's returning to the state of nature.

If indeed it is true that there is less petty crime in Nairobi than in San Francisco, and that this is because the sovereign is too weak to prevent self-help on the part of intended victims, that's an argument AGAINST Hobbes's absolute sovereign. If there is less petty crime in Nairobi because the sovereign in Nairobi is wiser and allows self-help on the part of intended victims, it doesn't contradict Hobbes. But it is also no help for the people of San Francisco. Their choices remain to allow themselves to become victims, or to commit the much greater crime of treason against the sovereign.

That's returning to the state of nature.

It's not "returning" to the state of nature because the state of nature had already been arrived at.

As @hydroacetylene says below, "someone is going to keep order even if it's not the government" and if that someone is the one keeping order, who are you to claim that they are not "the legitimate government"? Again, it is not royal blood, divine right, or even a crown that makes a man a King. It is the obedience of other men that makes a man a King.

It's not "returning" to the state of nature because the state of nature had already been arrived at.

No. Being subject to a bad sovereign who allows some of his subjects to commit crimes against others is not being in a state of nature.

Yes, it is, a big chunk of Hobbes' whole thesis is that the sovereign's primary purpose (and the reason you should obey him) is to prevent precisely this outcome, if he isn't able to do so then he is not the legitimate sovereign.

It seems like it's actually worse than being in a state of nature, since in a state of nature you could retaliate by picking up a big rock and smashing your enemy's head (and maybe his family's heads), while being a disfavored group under a bad sovereign means you'd have to successfully smash the heads of your enemy, his family, the entirety of the city, state, and federal law enforcement to achieve the same result.

That it seems worse does not make it less true, wear a helmet.

Can you try to put in a bit more effort? I don't know why you seem to constantly get away with these pseudo-profound one liners. I'm pretty sure most other users would get modded.

A state of nature would be an absence of authority, it would just be might makes right at the individual or, at most, clan level. Anarcho-tyranny is worse than might makes right if you're part of a disfavored group. You can have a mighty clan, but modern states have an incredible amount of muscle and intelligence at their disposal. It doesn't matter how many sons or cousins you have, nor how strong they are, the US Government is going to come down on any members of your clan like gigaton of bricks.

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