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Let's remember that there is online PUA (un)reality and actual physical world PUA/high body count guy reality.
Online PUAs go hard into things like "last minute resistance" and "anti-slut defense." These are absolutely rapey and awful. And they're pretty much theoretical rationalizations and analysis created by soy boys LARPing as "PUAs" (any online subculture that has lots of acronyms is often populated by the same basic template nerds with various extra skins and other DLC attached.)
Actual, real life "PUA" types experience consent in absolutely black and white scenarios like "has she leaned over and asked me to f**k her? Is she actively unfastening my belt? Has she already gone ahead and leaned in for the kiss herself?" Real life PUAs look at a grey zone not just as a potential risk, but as a failure at the application of their skills. The idea isn't to jump her bones as she is perhaps just beginning to imagine an encounter, but to push the pre-physical seduction to such an extent that she is actively soliciting it in no uncertain terms - and will look back on it with genuine happiness. The parallel between real world PUA stuff and corporate sales is undeniable; don't sell them, make them want to buy the thing so bad they're shoving money at you. And make them happy to see you when you come back for a second time around (am I talking about sales or sex here .... I don't even know anymore).
Real life seduction / PUA / whatever you want to call it is about the challenge of generating real and powerful desire. It's not about weaseling into a grey area to be the sex-bandito who's in and out in a flash.
This is also why lots of (again, "real") PUAs leave that subculture - they want to level up to the next stage of generating real, powerful, and enduring desire over a long term relationship.
Because that is incredibly hard. And supremely worthwhile.
Meh. Such statements are needlessly generalizing and biased in my view. As far as I can tell, PUA recommendations/techniques mostly discussed LMR and ASD specifically in the context of one-night stands in clubs. Then again, such venues lost most of their relevance in the post-COVID digital age anyway.
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I spent time in the real life PUA community during it's heyday (eg regular lair meetups in different cities). While there are PUA's who act in the manner you've outlined, there are also absolutely PUA's who will aggressively try to push through last minute resistance. I know because I've heard them brag about it multiple times. I would not even be able to say the majority had graduated to the level of puissance you've described above.
Many were unskilled/had no idea what they were doing, or were skilled, but actually bad apples in the aggressive 'push through resistance' sense. I'd say 30% were both skilled at their craft and acting in good faith in the manner you describe above. I'd say 30% were just assholes using their powers (or lack thereof) for evil. At least 50% of guys were badly/untrained. There's a venn diagram with 4 circles between skilled/unskilled and kind/selfish players.
The bad guys exist. I don't mean to tar the PUA community with the same brush because the bad apples were still in the minority, and I knew that most guys just wanted to eventually get a girlfriend rather than go for a highscore on bodycount. But sights like the accuser stories above weren't unknown in the nightclubs (eg physically aggressive, unwanted advance). I'm not saying that's rape and deserves an $80 million payout, but it is what it is.
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Oh come on, there are plenty of real life promiscuous men who believe in the same stuff as your Internet PUAs, even if they don’t know the cringe terminology for it.
There are some men for whom seduction is about seduction, and for whom anything less than absolute enthusiasm would be unattractive and a turn-off, but there are many others who just want they dick wet, if you will.
Sure, I think all straight men on some level want women to find them attractive, but this isn’t a necessary precondition to want to fuck them, or no men would pay for it.
That's a good point, which my post failed to consider.
Sorry, but I have to "No True Scotsman" you on this one. Agree totally that there are a ton of guys with various levels of game that run around doing this shit. I tried, in my previous post, to call out the fact they aren't actually committed to developing the deeper skills and mindsets of "seduction" (aside: I don't like either the term PUA or seduction, but I can't think of a better one thats in common usage). To mix up some metaphors - knowing a few military phrases and having gone to one or two tactical training events doesn't make you a SEAL.
Just remember I apologized first before deploying my rhetorical ninja roll.
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