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PaperclipPerfector  2yr ago (text post)   31444 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 19, 2024

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The obvious anser to me would seem to be that academia is not a particularly rigorous field and that especially at the highest levels it's primary role is to sort aspiring members of the chattering class into "winning" and "loosing" buckets rather than to educate, hence why so many professors grade on a curve rather than against knowledge of the material.

As such I think claims made based on anything produced by academia in the last half-century or so it should be taken with a grain of salt. Anecdotally the sort of naive symbol manipulation that seems to be measured by IQ tests and academic achievement seems to be only tangentially related to conscientiousness, foresight, and ability to take-on/integrate new information. In fact, there seems to be a tipping point +1 or 2 SD where it actually becomes negatively correlated with outward signs of intelligence as the Higher IQ/Symbol-Manipulation Quotient gets turned towards rationalizing previously held opinions/beliefs rather than updating one's model to reflect changing circumstance or generating accurate theories of mind.

Meanwhile correlation to income and criminality is easily explained by academia's role as a means of sorting aspiring members of the chattering class into "winning" and "loosing" buckets, though I would question the "criminality" claim. Are we certain that the Bidens are less crooked than the median family "unlicensed pharmacist" living in the projects? Or are "the elite" just looking out for their own? Personally, my money would be on the latter.

I think claims made based on anything produced by academia in the last half-century or so.

You should be happy to know that the US military’s use of standardized testing goes back more than a century. For college too actually.

And you not accepting low IQ levels of criminals and trying to blame this on academia is frankly just an impressive way to think.

You’re a rare flower that hates academia but also agrees with it on race and IQ being made up and used by bad people for bad purposes.

McNamara was never a general. He was the CEO of Ford.

He was our longest serving SecDef.

The guy who is the boss of the generals.

Don’t evade the point just because @somedude messed up a detail that doesn’t change the substance of the point.

And that point would hat be?

If there is an argument that hes trying to make i dont see it. In the meantime McNamara's legacy as SecDef is one of why no one should ever listen to WEIRD systematizing utilitarian types who think they can fix things with this one weird trick.

I still don't understand what argument you think you're making either then or now.

The thing that MacNamara is famous for in military circles and the thing you seem to be referencing is his efforts to make the US Military "More Efficient" by emphasizing technology over troops. Why bother with strict recruitment standards or waste money on training, housing, medical care, etc... if all you need is a gaggle of conscripts to draw fire so the airplanes know where to drop their bombs? Or so the thinking went.

What I don't understand, and what neither you nor the OP, @aardvark2, @SwordOfOccam, Et Al have bothered to explain is how MacNamara acting like the uncharitable strawman of a Silicon Valley Utilitarian is supposed to convince anyone that we ought to start treating minorities as second-class citizens, or has anything to do with HBD, Ashkenazi Jews, or Group differences in IQ.

The claim was only about IQ scores vs real-life tasks in military, that IQ scores do have meaning. You demonstrated low decoupling and went to discuss other McNamara actions (which I happen know to nothing about), well maybe because you can't refute central point? Maybe you meant that lowering IQ threshold for military enlistment was actually good but other McNamara actions are guilty for bad performance of "moron corps"?

No, what I don't understand is how it's supposed to be an argument in favor of HBD and against individual merit.

ETA: or rebutt my claims regarding [current year] academia for that matter.

More comments

Do you remember taking the ASVAB?

Do you remember how certain jobs had a minimum GT score? Do you recall jokes about people who needed waivers?

The US military did studies in the WWII era that showed dumb people are more likely to fuck things up and be bad at their job. So the US military tries to keep the real dummies out altogether, and requires above average scores for many jobs. Becoming a pilot requires passing an extra test with a general aptitude section. Getting into the Defense Language Institute requires a good score on a language-learning aptitude test, which basically measures verbal IQ.

MacNamara decided to lower the minimum IQ to expand options for recruits/draftees. It did not go well.

So the moral of the story is that IQ is real and it matters.

You believing MacNamara made bad decisions is in line with him making a bad decision about lowering IQ requirements.

You’re smart enough that we should not have to tell you that if you enlist a bunch of low IQ people there’s going to be “disparate impact.”

Obviously there’s an HBD angle.

https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8syjn9/gwerns_review_of_mcnamaras_folly_the_use_of_lowiq/

McNamara ignored established DoD policy based on intelligence testing and job performance.

It didn’t go well.

It’s a famous case to cite when people want to believe that IQ doesn’t correlate to job performance. People here would assume you know that context.

Note the serous irony of you criticizing WEIRD utilitarian optimizers for trying to fix things where the “one weird trick” was IGNORING THE WELL-ESTABLISHED LINK BETWEEN INTELLIGENCE AND JOB PERFORMANCE.

You understand half of why McNamara and his Whiz Kids made a mistake; just not the half that contradicts your views and explains why the example was cited.

At no point in your prior comment did you try to make an argument/point, you were just wanted to insult/dunk on me.

Your behavior here is an apt illustration of the wider trends of historical ignorance, sloppy thinking, and "arguments as soldiers" that typify the HBD discourse on this forum.

“It takes someone really smart to be that dumb”

All this makes a good springboard for you to express your disdain for academia and rationalists, if it were true, but it's not. IQ correlates with achievement in the general case, up to +2 SD at least (I haven't seen good studies beyond that). It also correlates below the level you'd expect academia to have an effect. And there's certainly no evidence of a tipping point at which people start to appear dumber.

IQ correlates with achievement in the general case

What part of "it's primary role is to sort aspiring members of the chattering class into 'winning' and 'loosing' buckets" did you not understand?

What part of "general case" did you not understand? It is true even for non-members of the chattering class.

Why is that its primary role?

Why does the US military use it so heavily?

Even if that’s how it was being used, you’re not invalidating the massive amount of evidence that IQ correlates with performance.

And well beyond the things the “chattering class” have any direct interest in.

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