This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Thread soundtrack or Real/full version
So a guy lit himself on fire the other day. On purpose. In some ways, perhaps because we’ve been primed by Buddhist monk seminal example, that remains an ultimate attention-getter of Western modernity. And although most everybody talked a whole lot about it, mostly nobody seemed to care much. I’ve been checking in more than usual for a post here - hoping to tack on - so I didn’t have to go first.
“Performative” seems tough but fair. It seems to me like it was a bad move and and I’m sharing my perspective hoping it leads to productive exchanges.
I used to drink a lot. I still drink a lot, but I used to drink a lot too, and back in the day it got me in trouble exactly twice. Two separate trips to jail, one night each.
The second time I drank too much, went out for tacos, blacked out while driving, and crashed. No one got hurt (thank you Jesus) and I talked my way out of charges. Just one night in the tank and a memory of the stupidest thing I’ve ever done. Happy to tell that story but it’s kind of ‘fun’ and not highly probative.
The first time I woke up in a cell not remembering how I got there. I remembered going to a bar with some buddies. A cute girl offered me her drink saying some weirdo had just given it to her. I took it without a thought, we hit it off, and my buddies made themselves scarce. Flash from chatting with her after near-to-zero-as-makes-no-difference drinks to screaming for help banging against the bars.
(Quick tangent: as you might imagine most of the other fellas unfortunate enough to be there that night were screaming back at me. Some variation of “shut up,” with profanity. They were just trying to sleep. I screamed and banged for so long that (quite precisely) like a toddler I eventually tired myself out. Then I just wanted to sleep. So what happened when they brought in a new guy? He started screaming for help, and I started screaming back at him with some variation of “shut up,” and profanity. After all, we were just trying to sleep.)
Of all the “oh shit”ers possible in life, “shooting back a drink someone explicitly warned you might be spiked then waking up in jail” has gotta be up there. I knew I hadn’t had too much to drink - but had absolutely no idea what happened between that spiked drink and ending up in jail. To even list some possibilities is to discount the galactic extent of possibilities.
In between the sleeping and the screaming, your mind will go toward certain things: the things that actually matter.
“Guess my chances with my ex are shot, she’s the only number I have memorized of anyone nearby” (no one else to pick me up). “Hope my dog isn’t too hungry or in too much pain” (without her arthritis medication). “No one could steer me right but Mama tried, Mama tried” (what will she think when I call for bail money).
Strangers dying thousands of miles away were...thousands of miles from mind.
No one lights themselves on fire for The Cause in the privacy of their own homes. Performative is a given.
Efficacy is not always required for self-sacrifice, conviction, and heroism to touch something off in the human imagination. The futile last stand is universal. Does the futility or inevitability of defeat make a sacrifice make it more impactful? People seem to disagree, though every culture elevates stories of both heroic last stands, and futile ones. Of course, even the Jews have their own morbid one.
Still, I have a gut feeling that this act is a perversion of the noble sacrifice. The heroic resistance. Bushnell's display feels like a knock off. Maybe it's just because of my own politics, or because it is a knock-off of a 50 year old protest event. Bushnell was not fighting religious persecution in his homeland. He did not choose death instead of acceptance, or did he? He had options. He did not live in a place or time that would see a brutal war over the following 15 years. No, Bushnell was a safe American. He was as safe as you could be. Like so many Americans, he spent some of his time typing into the void, playing video games, and playing politics online.
Bushnell's act can't be called a LARP, but why does it feel like a LARP?
Maybe the feeling of perversion comes down to my cynicism. There is no Diem to coup here. There is not an Alamo to remember. Insofar as awareness and eyeballs are helpful, it seems like there are maximum eyeballs already. Outside of something wild, like Israel opening up a new front in Lebanon, then everyone is as involved or invested as they're going to be. Maybe America will claim to make the Israelis go home a few weeks early when it happens. There is an Israel filled with Israelis who can not yet say like they will accept living next to a Hamas governed Gaza. Until something in that equation changes, Israel will trudge along accordingly. It is written.
Maybe these things never seem heroic in the moment. The romantic hero aspect has to be earned with time. Although, this doesn't appear to be true in Quang Duc's case. I have to say I cracked an evil smile reading some snide dissident right types. "Yes, of course this man is a hero, my dear leftists. We shall all to aspire to follow in his example." There may be something in that. If this man is a hero, but one we must warn people not to emulate, then why would he a hero at all?
RE: drunk tank story. Nice anecdote. A little loss of freedom with a heavy dose of reality can put things in perspective.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link