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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   28301 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024

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The dominant strain of the left and the white-identity right believe fervently in the inescapable importance of racial identity

If you and @HlynkaCG want to talk about the white-identity right I beg you, just call them that. There is nothing inherently tied to HBD belief that implies the importance of racial identity. That you think I'm a white identarian is exhibit A that your understanding of the whole topic is deranged.

HBD and white identarian are not synonyms. One is a belief about the cause of statistical outcomes and the other is ideological movement. If you assumed that HBD was true are you actually saying that you'd be committed to white identarianism? Surely not right? The only thing holding you back from pushing for ethno states isn't the really quite difficult to defend belief that there is no variance in average aptitudes between races? Can you actually say that? Say "If I were convinced that there was a statistical difference in outcomes between racial groups I think ethno states would be a good idea".

If you're not willing to say that please stop putting those words in my mouth.

If you think white identitarians and progressives are distinct, what differences in policy, action or outcome do you see as relevant? Is it something beyond which specific racial groupings should be favored and which oppressed?

I have long argued for race blindness. HBD is simply true and its truth is useful in counter arguing against the belief that different outcomes are caused by racial discrimination. I know this cannot be the first time you're seeing this position, why do you keep ignoring it?

That you think I'm a white identarian is exhibit A that your understanding of the whole topic is deranged.

I don't think you're a white identitarian.

There is nothing inherently tied to HBD belief that implies the importance of racial identity.

No, there isn't, at least at the raw, verified facts level of "there are significant, persistent, well-verified differences in population-level IQ between demographic clusters that map pretty well onto the normal understanding of races."

And yet, I see people who I'm quite confident would not self-ID as white identitarian, people who I would not argue are white identitarian, people who have been democrat-voting progressives most of their lives but who now have grown progressive-sceptical, lamenting that Red Tribers have "wasted" political capital preventing poor black women from aborting their babies, because HBD. I don't believe that perspective is coming out of what people commonly understand as "the Right", and I certainly don't believe it's coming from the zeitgeist of Red Tribe. It's a fundamentally Blue Tribe perspective, a progressive perspective, an Enlightenment perspective. And it's pretty trivial to see how integrating HBD into their worldview got them from a normie-progressive viewpoint to what most normie progressives would consider an abomination without ever leaving the general Progressive worldview-space.

Likewise, "IQ is of paramount importance" isn't part of raw-facts-HBD, but it is an assumption that most of the HBD proponents I've talked to and seen have held, and I, like Hlynka, am pretty confident that it's disastrously wrong. Again, this is distinct from white identitarian ideology, but it's likewise not coming from Red Tribe, and is pretty clearly the product of a fundamentally Blue/Prog/Enlightened perspective.

If you assumed that HBD was true are you actually saying that you'd be committed to white identarianism?

I am pretty sure raw-facts-HBD is true, and I am certainly not committed to white identitarianism. But neither am I on board with HBD-as-a-worldview, which I think ranges from highly questionable to disastrously wrong, depending on how far people take it.

If you're not willing to say that please stop putting those words in my mouth.

I am not interested in putting words in your mouth. I am interested in critiquing HBD-as-a-worldview, among other things. I am entirely willing to take you at your word that your aim is race blindness. I think this is true for a lot of people who believe raw-facts-HBD. It is noticeably less true for the HBD-as-worldview set.

HBD is simply true and its truth is useful in counter arguing against the belief that different outcomes are caused by racial discrimination.

I disagree quite strongly that it is useful for counter-arguing against disparate outcomes as proof of discrimination, but laying out the argument isn't something I'm going to start at this late hour.

I'm tempted to go point by point but am on mobile today so I'll be brief. There needs to be a way to describe the truth value of HBD without the baggage of the vile hateful racists and you describing the vile worldview with a portmanteau containing the word is not helpful. We cannot be this afraid of the truth. It's beneath us.

HBD and white identarian are not synonyms.

A major component of FC's point is that while they may not be synonyms they are of a kind.

I recognize that to a Marxist Revolutionary the subtle nuances that differentiate Stalinism from Trotskyism will feel critically important, and that Stalinists will be offended by being lumped in with the Trots and vice versa. But to someone who is opposed to Marxism in general these are distinctions without a difference.

Likewise, whether you're a race essentialist who believes in HBD or you're a race essentialist who believes in intersectionality makes little difference to someone who genuinely believes in a colorblind meritocracy because you're an enemy either way.

and some HBD people believe we should edit genes to uplift future children's intelligence far above than we have any differences in existing populations now. Where do they fit?

Ironically, your inability to separate the truth of HBD from the motives and preferences of its adherents is emblematic of the very "postmodernism" that you have so frequently decried on this forum.

"HBD" as the word is used here is just the belief that different races, at the level of group averages, exhibit different psychological traits due in part to biological factors. It carries no inherent policy prescriptions. Do you just not believe that? Do you not think that's possible? (Because if you don't think that's possible, well, that's kinda what postmodernism is all about...)

It's not "inability", so much as a conscious rejection of all that "critical theory" and "death of the author" nonsense, and no I don't believe that it's "just the belief" I believe that it's the thin end of a wedge.

Likewise, whether you're a race essentialist who believes in HBD or you're a race essentialist who believes in intersectionality makes little difference to someone who genuinely believes in a colorblind meritocracy because you're an enemy either way.

Do you think it's not possible to believe in HBD and not be a race essentialist? True or false HBD is an empirical observation. Race essentialism is a political orientation.

To bring in your Marxist example HBD isn't the belief in the proletariat siezing the means of production. It's the recognizition that compound interest causes capital to accumulate. A brute fact about the world recognized by anyone interested in the truth that can be put towards propaganda about the virtues of building businesses and endowments for your children or propaganda about how you need to kill the capitalists while you still can before they own everything.

You're like someone who has seen the Marxist propaganda and has decided to react by disbelieving in compound interest and refuse to differentiate between the Marxists and your allies on those grounds.

Do you think it's not possible to believe in HBD and not be a race essentialist?

I think it's possible, but to the extent that such people exist I do not believe that they are posting about HBD, or complaining about "blank slatists" on theMotte.

You're like someone who has seen the Marxist propaganda and has decided to react by disbelieving in compound interest and refuse to differentiate between the Marxists and your allies on those grounds.

Are they really my allies though? or are they just my enemy's enemies?

I think it's possible, but to the extent that such people exist I do not believe that they are posting about HBD, or complaining about "blank slatists" on theMotte.

I'm not sure I've ever seen the "you don't actually exist" argument deployed before.

I'm not sure I've ever seen the "you don't actually exist" argument deployed before.

I didn't say that I don't beieve they exist, I said that I don't believe that they're posting about HBD or complaining about "blank slatists" on theMotte.

And yet here I am

Maybe, alternatively you are lying about not being an identitarian.

  • -12

For the record, would you mind defining "white identitarian" and "race essentialist"? There are multiple plausible ways to draw those boxes.

And yet here I am.

Or you're "hiding your power".

I know you don't go for the rationalist memeplex but falsifiability of beliefs predates yud and should be an exception. Is there truly nothing I could do or say that would convince you otherwise?

In light of recent sad news, perhaps you mean "hiding your power level?"

More comments

Literally none of the arguments that you have made applied to the positions that I assume aquota espouses.

You are saying:

  1. Those who advocate for racial differences (on average) are basically the same as those who advocate for racial identitarianism.
  2. Racial identitarianism is bad, like progressives, opposed to colorblind meritocracy, etc.
  3. Therefore, those who think there are racial differences (on average) are bad, are like progressives, are opposed to colorblind meritocracy etc.

I hope you can see that that's a terrible argument.

Most here are trying to say that they aren't racial identitarians, that they aren't like progressives on those matters, that they are pro-meritocracy, and so forth.

Your response is to go back and say that we can lump them in as the same thing, and that protests are vain.

Okay, let's assume that reasoning is legitimate.

Then,

  1. HlynkaCG posts on themotte, and self-identifies as on the right, like those who advocate for racial identitarianism.
  2. Racial identitarianism is bad, like progressives, opposed to colorblind meritocracy, etc.
  3. Therefore, HlynkaCG is bad, is like progressives, and is opposed to colorblind meritocracy etc.

You may try to argue that you're not like those people, but really, you're in the same camp: those who post on the motte, and self-identify as on the right. We should dismiss any such protests.

I of course do not endorse such reasoning, but I hope you can see the parallels.

But please, characterize people's positions fairly, and listen when everyone's telling you that you don't understand, that we're not (most of us) like what you are saying. A claim does not escape being a strawman of someone's position just because there exists someone else in the world who might agree with that claim.

Edit: spelling

I think a more accurate summation would be something along the lines of...

1: Those who argue that racial differences (on average) outweigh individual differences are effectively arguing for racial identitarianism.

2: racial identitarianism is fundamentally incompatible with a colorblind meritocracy

3: Ergo those who argue that racial differences outweigh individual differences are lying when they claim to support a colorblind meritocracy

I hope you can see the problem there

1: Those who argue that racial differences (on average) outweigh individual differences are effectively arguing for racial identitarianism.

Alternatively, you could accept that the differences (sadly) exist, work on creating a society where people who differ (in any particular way we're talking about) will be treated as well as possible regardless of race, and fight back against anyone trying to use equality of outcome as a measure of racial discrimination (at least, without controlling for base rates).

On average, men are bigger and stronger than women, but the bell curves do have some overlap. We can try to create a world where shorter people can reach the top shelves, and weaker people can open jars, and where hand-to-hand violence isn't a way to resolve conflicts, without turning society into an identitarian battle of the sexes. And we should not look at jobs that require physical strength, see that they're almost entirely male, and claim that this is the result of discrimination against women.

Nor should we classify the job as "a man thing", or try to keep qualified women out of it, or criticize a strong woman by saying she's "acting like a man". But this is all about drawing fine lines and reaching for societal norms which have never existed and which we will only ever imperfectly approximate.

And yes, there will be some people who, for various reasons, attack even reasonable things that can be said. Possibly even an entire political movement full of them. Those people are still wrong. And yes, maybe there's actual discrimination going on, using the word in the bad sense. That's bad too. And yes, so are the people who manipulate or misunderstand statistics to justify the bad discrimination.

It's a long slow process of understanding the world and trying to make it better, without breaking it too much along the way.

I hope you can see the problem there

I see several, but the one I'll call attention to is number three.

3: Ergo those who argue that racial differences outweigh individual differences are lying when they claim to support a colorblind meritocracy

I genuinely and sincerely have absolutely no idea how a fully sane and functional human being could possibly come to the conclusion that "I think you're lying about your position, now defend this position that I've decided on for you!" is some kind of valid debate tactic.

It's flat-out bugfuck insane. You can suspect whatever you want, but you have to respond to the posts that actually exist. The idea that anyone else is supposed to care about your personal fantasies concerning what they believe is completely laughable.

Okay, I reject part one (for two different reasons), as would many others here.

Edit: That is, I don't think it follows that they are arguing for racial identitarianism, and I think many here would think that individual differences can often exceed racial differences.

A one standard deviation gap (which is I think what most say is the white-black gap in the US) still means that there are 16% or so of the one population on the other side of the other population's average, assuming things follow a normal distribution.

But I don't think it's really at all controversial that there's a gap, the only real questions are the causes, to what extent those are environmental vs. genetic, how best they can be remedied, etc. You can look at the SAT averages for a simple demonstration that there are "racial differences (on average)" in the US. (Yes, I know you're in all likelihood about to say that such differences don't matter, because you don't think IQ matters. Your statement in the previous comment didn't say that, but I'll allow you to add to your major premise that you're only talking about racial differences among things that matter, if you wish. I think you should concede that such differences in ability should matter at least in academia, since the SAT is one of the best measures of college performance, I'm led to understand, and since you've characterized IQ as mostly measuring how good people are at academic-like things.)

Thanks for reframing things in a way that's closer to a valid syllogism, even if I think the major premise doesn't really apply.

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