site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Trump case out on him being an insurrectionists.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-719_19m2.pdf

Compared to the Reddit debates and how the SC would prevent this as a non-lawyer I thought the opinion was fairly basic and simple. It seems to me that they just declared it a Feds power in Federal elections and the States don’t get a say. Personally, I did come to a belief that it was self-executing.

I think they avoided really touching on all the novel legal theories both ways going around on Reddit or twitter.

It came down to what I believe was one of my original views that letting States have any say in declaring someone an insurrectionists would be a complete clusterfuck and basically turn into state legislatures electing Presidents. Therefore they declared it a federal power.

I would call this pragmatic versus legally correct in my opinion. They avoided 100 page treatise on whether the President is an office holder.

I predicted something between 7-2 and 9-0. 9-0 seems better for the nation.

I see this as a pretty nakedly political decision. Not partisan - I do not believe that the court is making its decisions on the basis of what is in Trump's or the GOP's best interests - but political in the broader sense. The court has sought to lower the political temperature as a primary goal, and the Barrett concurrence is merely the most obvious evidence of that.

That's not surprising and arguably not even unwise. I resent the idea of bowing to implied threats - but nonetheless those threats can be real, and tensions really are high. Principle is all well and good but in the real world principled decisions often have consequences. It's not the worst thing in the world that those holding power flinch away from inviting chaos and conflict.

But it's legally incoherent. Apparently all the other sections of the 14th amendment can be enforced by courts without enabling legislation. And apparently even section 3 is self executing in regard to state candidates. But suddenly when it comes to federal candidates, well, the amendment may as well not exist.

It's also nonsensical that a constitutional amendment banning insurrectionists from holding office has the practical effect of giving greater ballot access to insurrectionists than those who states seek to disqualify for other reasons. It's fine for RFK Jr to be on some ballots and not others. Why is it that a state cannot disqualify someone who tried to overthrow the government, but can disqualify someone who doesn't have enough signatures? Indeed, why is it that a state can't ban an insurrectionist from the ballot, but can just legislate away presidential elections entirely and appoint electors some other arbitrary way?

I'm dissatisfied. But I wasn't really expecting satisfaction, so whatever. There have been many incoherent court decisions in the past and there will be many more in the future, and the world will keep on turning.

Hopefully at some point Congress will have the good sense to pass a bill resolving all these issues for the future, once the Trump drama has passed.

Re other sections being self enforcing

We talked about this when the Colorado case came down. The Colorado dissent talked about it too. You are ignoring the context of American approach to rights and burdens generally and the 14th amendment context specifically.

Things like equal protection is a benefit granted to an individual. The insurrection clause is a restriction upon a general right. It is very different to say “you government cannot do that because it violates my equal protection notwithstanding no congressional bill” as opposed to “despite all of these vast open questions that need to be answered by a statue we will let a state disqualify a president due to the insurrection clause without implementing language.” That is, self execution is more properly thought of applying when the provision is protecting rights; not taking away rights. This default isn’t just because of the background principle of liberty but also basic sense of fairness — we shouldn’t punish someone due to massively underdetermined rules.

Moreover you also ignore the context of the 14th. Protecting citizens rights (eg due process or equal protection) was a way of limiting southern states ability to exercise authority. In contrast, the self execution of the insurrection clause could spur on state power. That is quite odd.

Finally there is just the general federal structure.

When you take all of those background rules etc you can easily read the insurrection clause as needing enabling law while at the same time believing eg equal protection does not. To do otherwise prioritizes a kind of strict constructionist approach which is generally impressive but all the more for constitutional exegesis.