site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   28231 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The Fremen canonically originally roughly from the Nile area. While there should have been more Arabic Fremen (i wonder if they're saving Rami Malek for Part 3?), having black Fremen is in no way against the canon, and there's nothing wrong as such with casting Zendaya as Chani.

The Fremen canonically originally roughly from the Nile area

I know the Fremen have a lot of Islamic imagery, but I'd thought this in particular was a Jewish reference? They came out of Egypt, they were slaves on Salusa Secundus, they were persecuted and chased from planet to planet, all the while preserving their ancient beliefs (or at least, they think they did, but getting actual Reverend Mothers on Arrakis probably helped). And look, they're waiting for a Messiah!

There are explicit Jews in the sequels, so they are separate.

Well, yes, but the themes can be reused repeatedly? This is literature (or about as close as sci-fi gets), there doesn't have to be a one-to-one mapping to the real world. The Fremen are clearly a mashup of a lot of things, most especially Arabs and Islam, but why not toss in certain elements of Jewish history, too? (As distinct from "Judaism", which I don't think the Fremen borrow much from. They've got various private rituals, and hold themselves apart from other people, but that may be as far as it goes?)

As I understand it, the Fremen were once pilgrims of the Zensunni religion fleeing persecution (there is a vision/flashback in the book mentioning how the Empire denied them the Hajj), so there's definitely a lot of Islamic coding there.

Stilgar planted the staff in the sand beside Paul, dropped his hands to his sides. The blue-within-blue eyes remained level and intent. And Paul thought how his own eyes already were assuming this mask of color from the spice.

‘They denied us the Hajj,’ Stilgar said with ritual solemnity.

As Chani had taught him, Paul responded ‘Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?’

‘I am a Naib,’ Stilgar said, ‘never to be taken alive. I am a leg of the death tripod that will destroy our foes.’

Silence settled over them.

Paul glanced at the other Fremen scattered over the sand beyond Stilgar, the way they stood without moving for this moment of personal prayer. And he thought of how the Fremen were a people whose living consisted of killing, an entire people who had lived with rage and grief all of their days, never once considering what might take the place of either – except for a dream with which Liet-Kynes had infused them before his death.

‘Where is the Lord who led us through the land of desert and of pits?’ Stilgar asked.

‘He is ever with us,’ the Fremen chanted.

And the Glossary:

Hajj: holy journey.

Hajr: desert journey, migration.

Hajra: journey of seeking.

What I find interesting about that "They denied us the Hajj" phrase, is that it's clarified to mean that it was denying them the freedom to go wherever they want. It seems to have lost the significance of a pilgrimage to a specific place (although Muad'dib's religion recreates that in the next book), and instead means something more like what a nomad or one of the traveling people might hold important, as one of the fundamentals of life.

Oh, that makes sense, so there is still some plausible deniability in the "literal Space Arabs" department.

That being said, the idea of people still making the journey to Mecca many centuries in the future (edit: and across many lightyears!) did fascinate me.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats