site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 11, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The upthread discussion about male role models reminded me of a web essay that I can no longer find (damn it). The author was a male English professor for undergrads. His course satisfied a general requirement, so his male student population broadly represented the student body. In the essay, the author observed that when his male students were given an opportunity to select a text or topic to study, the most popular subject was always power.

I don’t recall the author proposing any reason for that preference. We can come up with a couple.

Broke: They know that power is the ultimate aphrodesiac.

Woke: They are already toxically masculine. The professor should focus exclusively on books by queer women of color, who hate power.

Bespoke: They are thinking about the Roman Empire.

I’ll have to expand on that last one.

Ages ago, I came across someone asking why 19th Century Britain seemed to be so obsessed with Rome. One responder said “Britain found itself with an empire unexpectedly. The 19th Century British culture was looking to ancient Rome to give it context. How should they act? What is it like to have an empire? What can they learn?”

That sprang to mind as I was reading the essay. Those teenage boys knew that they were on the cusp of having power, over themselves at least. They should, at least. What does that mean? How should they behave?

My question, then, is: What would you recommend for those boys, to help them understand the power that they will eventually wield?

What would you recommend for those boys, to help them understand the power that they will eventually wield?

As a former boy, I happen to be an expert on this topic. So here's a good reading list that skips the trivialities and gets you directly to the true knowledge of that awful beast.

These on their own should, if you internalize their lessons, dispel idealisms and make you a dangerous politician.

I expect a lot of this thread to worry about the moral question, about what to do about and with power. But for that question to be relevant, one must acquire and wield it first, and understand how it really works.

Most people don't read classical literature (including nonfiction) except for a specific reason, usually school. The size of the population, let alone the size of the young male population, who'd 1) consider reading such things to not be boring drudgework and 2) actually get anything out of them is tiny. Reading such things is no longer considered high status in our society anyway. It doesn't matter whether you personally read them as a boy and found them useful; typical-minding is a thing.

What they should read, or watch, is a variety of things that they mostly read or watch for other reasons, but which have the occasional bit about using power properly because the idea is in the zeitgeist so writers naturally put it in their works every so often. And the only way you're going to get that to happen is to restructure society first. (Although there's an interesting conversation in Fate/Zero.)

Your list is useless unless a boy actually comes up to you and says "I'd like to read some classical literature about exercising power, what do you recommend?" In which case, recommend away, but that won't happen much. It's the political science equivalent of "how do I get my child interested in programming computers?" To which the answer is "You don't, most people are not interested in that."

If there were a fictional series that compiled all this forbidden knowledge in a compelling narrative, I'd recommend that. But that does not exist. The best you get is dramatic tidbits of Machiavelli and maybe eternal truths carried through collective unconscious and archetypes, in say, Tolkien or Death Note.

If there are any artists looking for ideas, here's a under exploited gold mine of narrative tension though.

Tis true, not many have the stomach to learn how to succeed at politics. But I would actually dispute boys can't be made to read this stuff not because I did it, nor because they did the equivalent for decades but because PewDiePie had an ongoing book club with similar tomes and I know for a fact a decent amount of people followed along.

A "decent number of people" out of the size of the Internet is a tiny number of people.