site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 6, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

MIT no longer requires diversity statements for faculty hires.

Allegedly. The only sources I’ve seen covering this are not exactly paragons of journalism, citing emails rather than anything public. MIT’s own website still describes the practice in glowing terms. I am curious whether the general population of MIT staff—the ones maintaining their websites—is in favor of this change, or if any of them were consulted.

Assuming this is credible, let’s make some predictions.

  • social media backlash: guaranteed.
  • news backlash, a la NYT: high. This is red meat for opinion columns, as evidenced by the fact that conservative outlets are already crowing about it. But maybe I’ve misjudged, and no one in the mainstream actually cares?
  • policy reverted: low. I predict a whole lot of nothing. The people who most care about this are less likely to have leverage over MIT. If it does get rolled back, I predict it’ll be downstream of administrative drama within the school.
  • policy spreads to other elite universities: medium? I have no idea which way the wind is blowing. Outlets are trumpeting their preferred conclusion. But I suspect this is going to be localized.

I know it's hopelessly, comically naive, but I'm still just kind of blown away that this ever became a thing. There is probably nothing that marks me as more of a 90s lib than thinking that the appropriate answer to, "what will you do for diversity, equity, inclusion?" has always been, "I promise to embrace the quality of work that any potential student does without regard to their race or gender, I care about physics, not skin color". That this became not only unacceptable, but a sign that someone is actually quite racist is just absolutely amazing and completely irreconcilable with a university caring about merit.

I suspect that serious technical institutions are more likely to scrap these things for exactly that reason. You can't DEI your way to being able to do math, physics, or chemistry that actually works. Other departments are perfectly safe to keep using these political statements though - sociology departments produces can net-negative knowledge, there is no requirement that they ever do anything that actually works, and nothing about their funding relies on that changing.

You can't DEI your way to being able to do math, physics, or chemistry that actually works. Other departments are perfectly safe to keep using these political statements though - sociology departments produces can net-negative knowledge, there is no requirement that they ever do anything that actually works, and nothing about their funding relies on that changing.

Sounds like you are saying that the STEM subjects are intrinsically white and racist, while the social sciences are sufficiently enlightened.

I kid, I kid.

In my model of reality, the STEM-powered industrial revolution did more to (ultimately and mostly inadvertetly) improve the lot of formerly non-free underclasses in two centuries than the humanities and social sciences did in two millennia.

For what it's worth, I share your ideal of being color-blind instead of putting one's hand on the scales to ensure equality of outcomes. The ultimate arbitrator of what constitutes good physics should be reality, not a HR panel.

Or more generally:

The ultimate arbitrator of what constitutes success in [subject] should be [a structure men have significant biological specialization into manipulating], not a [a structure women have significant biological specialization into manipulating]

I don't think there's anything more complex than that going on here. I think the lack of biological specialization in objective usefulness is a serious problem to people who were sold "if you waste your life on this degree, you'll be just as objectively useful as men are", and so need to compensate [in a way indistinguishable from them truly believing it].

And the way you compensate in a zero-sum environment... is to impose taxes. And if you want to levy taxes, you need a good excuse, and what better excuse to use than something currently intractable like "disparate impact"?

While I can not speak for HR panels, I want to emphasize that I do not think that men enjoy any biological specialization which makes them relevantly better at STEM than their female colleagues. At my workplace, we have perhaps 40% women and for whatever weird subsubpopulation ends up in my field (a non-booming field of physics), I do not see gender being correlated with competence. (There are significant variances within specialties, FWIW. The small subset of colleagues who I consider to be good or great programmers are mostly male. On the other hand, women are more likely to actually ask for help. Just the other day, I chased a crash down the entirely wrong rabbit hole with a debugger and might have wasted hours which my female colleague in the end solved in five minutes with an email.)

While I think that there are certainly degrees and occupations which have more or less objective usefulness (e.g. medicine vs grievance studies), I do not believe there is much in the way of correlation between gender-codedness and objective usefulness.

I mean, I consider woke studies -- which are coded female -- to be net negative, but I also consider marginal contributions to the capabilities of the world's militaries to be net negative, with the security dilemma being a prime example of an inadequate equilibrium if there ever was one.