domain:lesswrong.com
clo
1hr ago
Yes, but the free flow of information beyond geographies is corroding shared reality. This all exists at the same time now. So what's left? Force?
Childbirth is something valued by many cultures, but I could just as easily see potential messaging for, and the people who buy into, "no ethical births under capitalism". So how do you square the circle? Fight to enforce your symbols over others?
clo
1hr ago
So what you're saying is the (current) left is female coded and the right is male coded?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Right, and this is why the cities with the largest foreign-born fraction (Miami, San Jose, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco) are the poorest, most crime-ridden cities in the country, while the cities containing the lowest fraction of foreign-born Americans (Detroit, Louisville, Memphis, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City) are beacons of safety and prosperity.
On the one hand, selection effects are absolutely a thing, and will explain at least some of that trend. On the other hand it sure doesn't look to me like foreigners turn cities into ethnic spoils engines, except to the extent that they make cities wealthy and some of that wealth goes to spoils.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Before 3 happens you get "the price of food rises enough that the voters get unhappy, and unhappy voters are bad for reelection chances".
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Because they're posting videos from their own raids, and those videos get lots of engagement, and the reactions to the videos that ICE posts is largely in line with what you'd expect given what footage ICE chooses to show and how they choose to show it.
Dean
Flairless
1hr ago
This is happening, and the optics do suck. You can tell they suck because people hate and fear ICE officers in a way they didn't a year ago.
Not too many years ago many of the same people hated a couple of catholic kids for standing at a bus stop and smiling.
Truly the proof of the fault was how many people hated them in a way they didn't the week prior.
WandererintheWilderness
1hr ago
But fmac is not talking about material reality. fmac is talking about the optics. If people hate and fear ICE officers in an unprecedented way, this is strong evidence that their optics suck. Being feared and hated doesn't prove they're actually behaving badly, but it does, almost tautologically, mean that they are giving off a scary hatable vibe.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Does this rule apply to any other political cause?
Yes? Is this a trick question? It looks like people here were pretty close to universal in saying the ATF was incompetent, malicious, or most likely both here.
For some reason, the cherrypicked image of his ventilated skull wasn't a cause celebre nor a moment for deep retroflection on the costs of a cause
Yeah, it is an unfortunate truth that "someone did an unambiguously terrible thing and now the world is worse :(" doesn't get nearly as much engagement as "someone did a thing, maybe it's very bad, maybe it's not so bad, but everyone has an opinion and thinks anyone who disagrees with them is an evil mutant".
Perhaps there are clear examples of immigration enforcement that weren't cause celebres for the Left?
Yeah, almost all of them. In (to pick an arbitrary Biden year) 2022, ICE deported about 70,000 people. Not more than a handful of those people were cause celebres. Likewise in 2018 (to pick an arbitrary Trump 1 year), and likewise this year.
orthoxerox
If you can read this, you're using a custom theme
1hr ago
Where's the diversity quota? Ivy students need to have minority friends so they can claim they're not racist.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1hr ago
· Edited 1hr ago
It's unfortunate that it seems like you have chosen to flame out, but taking your argument at face value - are you arguing for something to the effect of "A (enforcing the FSA) is immoral, and B (preventing federal agents from enforcing it) was an appropriate reaction to it; therefore if C (enforcing immigration restrictions) is immoral, then B is likewise an appropriate reaction to it"? In that case, setting A=9/11, B=the commando raid on Osama's compound, C=illegal immigration, under the reasonable assumption that the majority of US citizens agree that A and C are immoral and B was an appropriate reaction to A, are you arguing for commando raids to kill all illegal immigrants (and/or even those involved in planning their immigration)?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Is it the left that's posting videos of these raids? I seem to recall with the Hyundai plant raid that it was ICE themselves that released that video. They're definitely being intentional in their choice of optics within the video, at least.
orthoxerox
If you can read this, you're using a custom theme
1hr ago
"Not every room in my house needs to be aesthetically pleasing! Where's the variety? Where's the tension? If every room in my house is painted pleasant colours, I will take aesthetic pleasure for granted and I won't appreciate those rooms as much! That's why I painted my living room traffic cone orange with bright pink molding."
orthoxerox
If you can read this, you're using a custom theme
2hr ago
He was literally a Notre Dame-adjacent mayor. /s
Crowstep
2hr ago
You are aggressively ignoring every poster asking you to clarify why enforcing immigration law is equivalent to enforcing laws on slavery. This is just trolling.
EvanTh
2hr ago
but personally I don't see how adding "...by the government, after a trial (in which my desired outcome is the just one)" to "I hope my political opponent is executed" makes it not support of violence.
Do you oppose capital punishment in all cases?
If not, where do you draw the line?
Lizzardspawn
2hr ago
Iis morally abhorrent to cross border without permission and to overstay a visa. To impose yourself in a place you don't belong and doesn't want you.
EvanTh
3hr ago
Do you believe it is a moral duty to resist government agents every time they are doing something you believe immoral?
If so, how do you believe this is consistent with having a functional government? If not, what makes ICE so especially immoral that you believe it is a duty to resist it?
Bingbong
3hr ago
In Malaysia it's a bit of a Starcraft situation with the 3 major races of Chinese, Malays and Indians (mostly Tamil). Plus English is probably the most common language. So the majority of Malaysian Citizens will tend to speak Malay, English and either Chinese or Tamil if they're from the applicable ethnic groups.
After those, probably Indonesian (Though Malay and Indonesian have the same Bahasa root language and could easily be argued to be dialects and/or mutually intelligible) is next then it's a wild mess of different immigrant groups and other nearby languages due to a hell of a lot of illegal and legal immigration. I think Filipino and Arabic speakers potentially would be the next bigger linguistic groups.
Bingbong
3hr ago
Yeah. The mainstream media is definitely trying to make ICE look maximally bad, but also there's been a conspicuous decision from the people managing ICE to maximize the intimidation impact of their activities.
Which might not even be a bad idea, considering it keeps the Red Tribe happy that 'something is being done', makes the blue tribe wail amusingly and seems to have cut down on people entering the country.
Bingbong
3hr ago
Do they lack moral legitimacy because you don't believe borders should exist? Should the hypothetical Slave Catchers have instead of returning the escaped slaves to slavery, elected to take them back to Africa or to Mexico, wouldn't that have been less immoral than if they returned them to bondage?
Historically, it seems fairly clear that this is what happens: Lebanon, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, Jerusalem, the spoils machines in places like New York in the 1930s (which used to be carefully split so that the major political positions were held by one Irishman, one Italian, one Jew and one protestant IIRC) and the black machines in places like Chicago.
From the outside, it looks like America is already heavily focused around ethnic spoils - some of your biggest political debates are about to what extent ethnicity is relevant in job and university applications, the appropriate ethnic composition of universities and good jobs (between whites, Jews, blacks, etc.). Where and how children of different races should be educated, and how they should be treated by the law when they grow up. In more integrated countries these questions simply don't come up.
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