domain:lesswrong.com
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
1hr ago
I do not think all actions of the state which lack moral legitimacy are factually equivalent. Hope this clarifies things!
RobertLiguori
1hr ago
Is it morally abhorrent for Mexicans to live in Mexico instead of becoming illegal aliens? Do you believe that every illegal alien has a right to your personal property in the same way that slaves have a right to their freedom? Do you believe that the law saying that have property and rights and not stripping them away from you to give them to illegal aliens is also illegitimate?
You are comparing two wildly different things; if your only response to this being pointed out is blank confusion, you should perhaps consider the properties of slaves and illegal aliens in more detail.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
You can look at the court filings yourself. Looks like a travesty to me. Discussed in more detail here.
And yeah having some travesties is unsurprising. The surprising thing to me is that someone is claiming that everyone detained can be looked up on a public website. "Everyone" is quite a high bar.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Ok sure people are being held without charges for over a month and barred from meeting privately with legal counsel, and the tool linked upthread to find detainees wouldn't work for family members to find them. That goes quite a bit beyond "arresting" but you're right that it doesn't reach the threshold of "disappeared", and I shouldn't use that term until we have good evidence of people being kidnapped by ICE and never being seen again.
That said, talk about damning with faint praise!
Skeletor
1hr ago
So now existing in Mexico is equivalent to slavery? Are we going to liberate Mexico and rescue them all, then? Can we put them where you live?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
You wanna bring receipts on that for this case? I can bring them for the proceedings leading up to the TRO, and I see nothing like that mentioned.
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
1hr ago
Neither. It is the peace where "they" get away with it for another day, for whatever definition of "they" we each prefer.
“For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.”
-G.K. Chesterton
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
Or they get rid of the filibuster.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1hr ago
The habeas corpus petition was filed on September 30. He was detained on August 27. That's a solid month. How long do you think is appropriate to hold someone without charging them?
On September 17th, 3 weeks after he was first detained, CBP informed him that they still hadn't assigned him an A-number - so
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by his name
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by a-number because one had not been assigned
My non expert reading is that the judge is pissed at a level that is not normal. From the temporary restraining order
There is generally no public interest in the perpetuation of unlawful agency action. To the contrary, there is a substantial public interest ‘in having governmental agencies abide by the federal laws that govern their existence and operations.
And looks like she's expecting malicious compliance from ICE as well
To be clear, Respondents must not remove Petitioner from the hospital, cause his discharge before his medical team deems it medically appropriate, or require his in-person appearance before an immigration officer prior to his discharge from the hospital. Rather, the Court orders that guards be withdrawn from Petitioner’s hospital room, that restrictions on his activities be lifted (including his ability to make telephone calls to family and friends and to confer confidentially with counsel outside the presence of ICE agents), and that any physical restraints, such as handcuffs, be removed.
This guy had 2-4 guards posted 24/7 for over a month. Someone high up signed off on this, this can't be written off as a single agent acting alone. Seems pretty egregious to me..
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
1hr ago
It was morally abhorrent to enslave people and to return them into slavery. Legitimacy does not consist in "whatever the state says is legitimate."
daguerrean
1hr ago
What was illegitimate about the Fugitive Slave Act other than the flagrant and duplicitous disregard for the law by free states?
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
1hr ago
The concept is right up my alley, but the movie's ending really threw me off.
..what threw you off about the ending? It seemed relatively straightforward to me. Spoilers initiating:
|| The lighthouse was ground-zero for the Shimmer, due to it being where the alien landed. The shimmer operated by smearing things into other things, copying and mixing together and generating variants of anything within the zone. It began altering and copying all the team members as soon as they entered. Note that we see them enter the shimmer, and then we hard-cut to them waking at a campsite, with no confirmation of what happened in between; it's not clear we're actually watching the original team or a duplicate throughout.
The ending: the shimmer is playing with the humans, pretty clearly trying to understand them. The husband had been copied, with the original self-immolating while the copy walked back home. In the main character's case, she convinces the copy to self-immolate, and in the process sets off a chain reaction that spreads immolation through at least its core domain. The shimmer is destroyed. "She" walks out, fundamentally altered at the least, with bits of her comrades mixed into her, and reunites with "her" "husband". The open question in the end is whether they're still carrying the shimmer inside them, and whether it will simply spread again. ||
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
2hr ago
Is it the peace that is the absence of tension or the peace that is the presence of justice?
fmac
Ask me about bike lanes
2hr ago
The price of farm labor will exceed the price people are willing to pay for the food and the farm will go under
This is what happens. Western wage demands and a global food market cannot work together, full stop.
America could import a ton more food, every agricultural exporting country would love to sell more avocados to America.
America doesn't want to give up food security, which is the right choice.
So then you can:
-
tariff food imports until for prices rise such that the wage cost can be met
-
go full socialism and subsidize farmers even harder than the USA already does to make up the wage cost without impacting food prices which would be hilariously expensive
If the automation existed it would already be in use all over the world
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
2hr ago
Cool. Now imprint this feeling in your mind, so that you can recall it in detail when the shoe is on the other foot.
I think it is every red-blooded American's moral duty to do a lot of things you probably would not approve of. moral clarity is a rush but it does not keep the peace.
crushedoranges
Can Marx explain the used panties market?
2hr ago
As a self-admitted partisan, Reddit is a pretty accurate source for what the liberals are currently believing and narrativizing about, ever since Twitter went down. Bluesky is too crazy, Threads is barren, Facebook is full of boomers, Instagram and Tiktok too noisy. Anything else is too small to be relevant.
Reddit is the largest online collection of Democrat partisans online: it's something they're proud of. It didn't use to be that way but it is now firmly enemy territory.
netstack
Texas is freedom land
2hr ago
Afraid I haven't seen the movie. You may or may not find the book similar. While I thought it was quite impressive, I suspect some of the parts I enjoyed could be classed as performance art. On the other hand, I'd say it absolutely manages a payoff.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
2hr ago
Good. ICE officers have, in my mind, about as much legitimacy as federal officials enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act and it is every red-blooded Americans moral duty to resist them.
sockpuppet2
2hr ago
I love Paul Thomas Anderson, but this had the same fatal flaw "Inherent Vice" did - his original stories are mostly about characters in control of their environments these stories very much aren't. (But kudos for being the only filmmaker ballsy enough to adapt Pynchon novels, in the first place. And the direction was superb, even if the screenplay wasn't - same as Megalopolis, last year.)
fmac
Ask me about bike lanes
2hr ago
there is no reason to believe that any other plausible method would deliver better results.
You don't even need e-verify
Just go after employers! Fine the shit out of people who knowingly use illegal labour. Imprison them! They're basically traitors to you anyway right? They're aiding and abetting these illegal immigrants. THE IMMIGRANTS DON'T COME TO THE USA FOR THE WEATHER, THEY COME BECAUSE AMERICANS PAY THEM MONEY FOR THEIR LABOUR.
I know two sectors that use HUGE amounts of illegal labour, hotels and farmers! Just go after them! Fish in a barrel.
Direct quote for you, by Trump:
“But you know, when you go into a farm and you set somebody working with them for nine years doing this kind of work, which is hard work to do and a lot of people aren’t going to do it, and you end up destroying a farmer because you took all the people away — it’s a problem. You know, I’m on both sides of the thing. I’m the strongest immigration guy that there’s ever been, but I’m also the strongest farmer guy that there’s ever been, and that includes also hotels and, you know, places where people work, a certain group of people work,”
The segue to hotels is hilarious
Yes there is???!
Then by all means, lay it out. When I want to list law enforcement travesties by federal law enforcement, I list people murdered, women and children burned alive en masse, obviously unnecessary use of lethal force, decades-long patterns of abuse of rights and murderous malfeasence, destruction of evidence, perjury and coverups, all without meaningful accountability through any process intended to supply it.
What are the clear misdeeds of the current ICE offensive?
This is happening, and the optics do suck. You can tell they suck because people hate and fear ICE officers in a way they didn't a year ago.
Blue tribe emotions are not a reasonable guide to material reality.
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
2hr ago
I do not think that the South seceded because they thought that Lincoln would shoot them up a la John Brown.
My understanding is that southerners were very worried about large-scale slave revolts, having observed long-term the outcome of such a revolt with the Haitian Revolution in 1791. John Brown, a murderous terrorist, made a serious attempt to ignite the same sort of slave revolt in Virginia, and for this was lauded as a hero and martyr by northerners generally, and that contemporary southerners saw this as proof that the northerners held their lives and wellbeing in slight regard.
From the first result for "southerner reactions to john brown":
In John Ellis’ letter to John Floyd and John B. Todd’s letter to Governor Ellis, they both mentioned the need for a militia in the wake of John Brown’s raid and execution. Ellis wrote to Floyd, the United States Secretary of War, about the conditions of North Carolina after the John Brown raid, and why North Carolina needed weapons for its militias. “The Sense of insecurity prevailing among the people of this State, renders it necessary that I should apply to you for arms to place in the hands of the militia…
...It is important to realize that there are exceptions to this demand for a militia. One such exception appears in The Diary of Catherine Ann Devereux, where she and her father differed on the issue of being militarily prepared after Brown’s raid. “He does not conceal that he thinks it all folly, childs play, no need of preparation for war…. I do not see how in the present attitude of the North, sample they have given us in the John Brown raid, he can be so indifferent to our preparation for a future one.”[4] Catherine’s entry reflects the attitude of several newspapers suggesting Northern fanaticism, and well as a family division between her father, a man not convinced of the need for preparing for a war, and Catherine, a woman who was convinced that war would be inevitable.
...And plenty more where that came from. The AI summary:
Southern reactions to John Brown were overwhelmingly negative, viewing him as a dangerous lunatic who threatened their way of life and sovereignty. His raid on Harpers Ferry intensified fears of slave insurrections and was seen as a direct challenge to the institution of slavery, leading many Southerners to advocate for secession and increased vigilance against abolitionist movements.
...And of course, all of this should be obvious with any understanding of who John Brown was and what he actually did. Of course, we understand now that John Brown was in the right when he attempted to secure his moral values through direct, murderous violence against those who disagreed, and of course we understand that similar murderous violence is acceptable when confronted by evil, implacable tyranny backed by force of law. The only wrinkle is that we cannot agree on what constitutes "evil" or "tyranny".
wemptronics
2hr ago
They aren't entitled the courts have said as much.
Blasting drivers after they: form convoys, interdict Federal vehicles, ram those vehicles, and do so with pistols sitting in their lap is an outcome, but it is not one I would consider just fine. I place ICE/CBP beyond the ATF on the meathead-unprofessional gradient for Federal law enforcement agencies. They will handle business in accordance to this position. The fact they didn't shoot more than one person or any caged pets might push them to be on par with the ATF. We'll have to see more cases.
This is more in the concerning or bad category of outcomes that, yes, would be easier to mitigate with some greater effort of cooperation or support from local officers. If for no other reason than for the city to protect its residents from dying for The Cause.
Federal officials enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act were returning people to slavery. ICE agents are returning people to Mexico. If you're going to have such a precious little time making the comparison, it would help if the two were comparable in some way.
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