domain:lesswrong.com
Skeletor
2hr ago
They are comparable in that the state's actions are equivalent in their lack of moral legitimacy. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
Yeah except you completely left out the part where you explain why they're, you know, comparable. You just walked out on stage and said "Slavery. There, now that I have moral legitimacy, I don't like ICE."
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
2hr ago
I have plenty of complaints about the conduct of ICE but the legitimacy of their official mission seems fine? Even if you think having open borders is a moral imperative the US is clearly not set up to support flipping a switch from 0 to 100% on that without lead time.
Unless this is bait, in which case can you please not or at least choose better bait?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
2hr ago
They are out of accordance with ethical principles, of course. Do you think returning fugitive slaves was the right thing to do?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3hr ago
They are both agents of the state, in the instant case. There are no shortage of other immoral groups it's morally obligatory to resist as well, of course.
daguerrean
3hr ago
He is just playing dumb and pretending to not understand the question to avoid answering it. I’m not sure why, but I doubt repeating it will get anything more meaningful out of him.
ulyssessword
3hr ago
What is the connection between ICE officers and Fugitive Slave Act enforcers, that it's appropriate to compare their moral legitimacy? Why not any other immoral group, like payday loan lenders, patent trolls, or NIMBYs?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3hr ago
They are both doing things that are immoral. I thought I was pretty clear?
Sunshine
3hr ago
And why are those actions morally illegitimate? What is the source of moral illegitimacy in those two cases?
4doorsmorewhores
3hr ago
Pornography is a great example of my favourite question for politicians, "What is a real problem in society that you don't believe the government should do anything about?"
ulyssessword
3hr ago
...and your stated reason slave officers were immoral is because they were doing their jobs, and their jobs are bad. Drawing the parallel that you believe ICE officers are immoral because they are doing their jobs, and their jobs are bad is the most obvious reading IMO.
I can't see how you could miss that. In fact, I can't see what else it could possibly be, so I'll ask directly: What is the connection between ICE officers and Fugitive Slave Act enforcers, that it's appropriate to compare their moral legitimacy?
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
3hr ago
Yes there is???!
Step me through this, please. Evidence of this being true would require a reasonably deep look at the anti-ICE narrative, the pro-ICE narrative, and some analysis of not only why the anti-ICE narrative is closer to the truth than the pro-ICE one, but an ironclad case for why ICE is being unnecessarily cruel.
I say some reasonably unoctroversial things like "gender affirming doctors are prescribing chemical castration drugs to children" and I'm expected to provide evidence with citations, but you make your case with "yes there is???!?" and repeating "thr optics are so horrible"? Why should I accept that?
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
3hr ago
There's a million ways he could've implemented the ICE program, and he chose one with the greatest optics of cruelty.
Give me the power of mainstream media, and I can portray a "free school lunch" program as having the optics with the greatest cruelty. Like why, after everything that we discussed here overe the years, should anyone, including left-wingers, take any of these declarations seriously?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3hr ago
They are comparable in that the state's actions are equivalent in their lack of moral legitimacy. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
Skeletor
3hr ago
Federal officials enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act were returning people to slavery. ICE agents are returning people to Mexico. If you're going to have such a precious little time making the comparison, it would help if the two were comparable in some way.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3hr ago
I do not think all actions of the state which lack moral legitimacy are factually equivalent. Hope this clarifies things!
RobertLiguori
3hr ago
Is it morally abhorrent for Mexicans to live in Mexico instead of becoming illegal aliens? Do you believe that every illegal alien has a right to your personal property in the same way that slaves have a right to their freedom? Do you believe that the law saying that have property and rights and not stripping them away from you to give them to illegal aliens is also illegitimate?
You are comparing two wildly different things; if your only response to this being pointed out is blank confusion, you should perhaps consider the properties of slaves and illegal aliens in more detail.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3hr ago
You can look at the court filings yourself. Looks like a travesty to me. Discussed in more detail here.
And yeah having some travesties is unsurprising. The surprising thing to me is that someone is claiming that everyone detained can be looked up on a public website. "Everyone" is quite a high bar.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
3hr ago
Ok sure people are being held without charges for over a month and barred from meeting privately with legal counsel, and the tool linked upthread to find detainees wouldn't work for family members to find them. That goes quite a bit beyond "arresting" but you're right that it doesn't reach the threshold of "disappeared", and I shouldn't use that term until we have good evidence of people being kidnapped by ICE and never being seen again.
That said, talk about damning with faint praise!
Skeletor
3hr ago
So now existing in Mexico is equivalent to slavery? Are we going to liberate Mexico and rescue them all, then? Can we put them where you live?
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
4hr ago
You wanna bring receipts on that for this case? I can bring them for the proceedings leading up to the TRO, and I see nothing like that mentioned.
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
4hr ago
Neither. It is the peace where "they" get away with it for another day, for whatever definition of "they" we each prefer.
“For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.”
-G.K. Chesterton
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
4hr ago
Or they get rid of the filibuster.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
4hr ago
The habeas corpus petition was filed on September 30. He was detained on August 27. That's a solid month. How long do you think is appropriate to hold someone without charging them?
On September 17th, 3 weeks after he was first detained, CBP informed him that they still hadn't assigned him an A-number - so
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by his name
- the ICE locator mentioned upthread wouldn't show him by a-number because one had not been assigned
My non expert reading is that the judge is pissed at a level that is not normal. From the temporary restraining order
There is generally no public interest in the perpetuation of unlawful agency action. To the contrary, there is a substantial public interest ‘in having governmental agencies abide by the federal laws that govern their existence and operations.
And looks like she's expecting malicious compliance from ICE as well
To be clear, Respondents must not remove Petitioner from the hospital, cause his discharge before his medical team deems it medically appropriate, or require his in-person appearance before an immigration officer prior to his discharge from the hospital. Rather, the Court orders that guards be withdrawn from Petitioner’s hospital room, that restrictions on his activities be lifted (including his ability to make telephone calls to family and friends and to confer confidentially with counsel outside the presence of ICE agents), and that any physical restraints, such as handcuffs, be removed.
This guy had 2-4 guards posted 24/7 for over a month. Someone high up signed off on this, this can't be written off as a single agent acting alone. Seems pretty egregious to me..
You are purely baiting at this point
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