Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
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User ID: 290
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
16d ago
Where does the American Revolution, wrt Britain and France, fit in this schema?
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
I'm just saying it's not quite as black-and-white as it might seem.
if Trump ran on "we've been at war with Iran for 47 years and under my administration we'll start a regional war" my guess is that he would have just straight up lost the election
And if the world was made of pudding, my guess is that it would be a lot harder to build skyscrapers.
And yet, our society has been built on a sharply limited willingness to make such finer distinctions...for the entirety of its existence and right down to the present day.
Society has been built on a lot of things for the entirety of its existence and right down to the then-present day, until people started to realise that it was wrong.
The Industrial Revolution greatly facilitated this process, which is why I consider degrowthism/primitivism/anticivilisationism to be unwise on the level of tickling a sleeping dragon.
I observe that such fine distinctions have been remarkably rare when it seemed desirable to coordinate consequences against my tribe for its perceived misdeeds.
I do not like the wokists' excesses either; that's why I came here!
We've had hate-crime laws for generations.
Because many (of at least the central examples of) hate crimes have two parts: the direct victimisation of one or a few individuals (e. g. a Black person beaten after registering to vote), and the threat to thousands or millions of others (other Black people deciding whether they ought to register to vote).
We've firebombed cities in wartime
Which, if you are referring to Dresden and Tokyo, I do not condone. (If we hadn't done so, we could've added charges for Coventry to the Nuremberg Trials.)
Your principles may or may not be wrong, but they are certainly irrelevant because they have never and will never be implemented in the real world.
When Columbus sailed the ocean blue, communication faster than a horse or sailing ship had never been implemented in the real world.
Freeing women from the drudgery of hand-washing clothes had never been implemented in the real world.
Eradicating an infectious disease had never been implemented in the real world.
In other words,
Well, first of all, through God all things are possible, so jot that down.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
(Incidentally I have never seen that film so I have no idea what happened to Rodriguez on the basis of their claimed gender identity.)
The adminisphere at the coal mine where she was employed accepted that Sra RodrÃguez was a woman, but insisted that, as a woman, she be excluded from 'men's work'.
What does it mean to "draw a social distinction" between two people on the basis of their gender identities?
(Note that because I do not personally experience gender identity, corresponding or opposed to my anatomy at birth, I can only rely on the lived experience of people who do have strongly felt gender identities, many of which point in the same direction as their intercruoral organs, as communicated through the not-entirely-lossless channel of human language.)
- One person's 'social distinction' can be another's 'discrimination', based on the fact that the second person asked you to stop and you didn't.
- There are some things to which almost all people would object, e. g. being paid a lower salary, and therefore constitute discrimination a priori.
- Some early trans advocates did not consider the possibility that certain arbitrarily-gendered things (e. g. clothing, occupations) did not need to be divided between men and women, and thus sought to move the boundary from 'genitals at birth' to 'self-identification' because they had no more awareness of the possibility of dissolving the boundary altogether than a fish has of water.
- The 'gender abolitionist' position is not entirely one which I would consider beyond the pale, provided that:
- biological sex is considered a private, rather than a public, matter¹, and
- dysphoric individuals have the option of altering their bodies to approach, to the greatest degree possible given current medical knowledge, the other biological sex.
In society as it stands now, some 'social distinctions' which would rarely, if ever, constitute 'discrimination', would include
- pronouns
- titles and forms of address
- seating at formal events whose host follows the old etiquette-guides which recommend alternating men and women
- workplace team-building exercises in which, there being an approximately equal number of men and women, manglement decides to divide by gender
¹cf. the dwarven society in Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. (GNU Terry Pratchett)
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
I have taken ill the past two weeks, and was unable to attend to many matters; however, I will respond to it shortly.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
Do collectives exist?
They exist as a useful abstraction over the interests and actions of many individuals; i. e. they exist on the Map, but not in the Territory.
Can collectives do bad things?
Again, only as an abstraction.
If the answer to those two questions is "yes", then collective blame is a necessary concept.
Sort of. In terms of who gets listed in the 'factors leading to' paragraph in the history texts, it is reasonable to list $GROUP did $THING. In terms of who ought to suffer Consequences, one has a duty to make finer distinctions; e. g., it is not appropriate to blame or ostracise an individual liberal for the murder of Mr Kirk if the liberal in question did not, after said murder, continue to call for violence against 'Nazis' without being clear which right-wing figures do and, more importantly, do not fall under that label.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
"[W]hat virtues?"
Universal benevolence, the refusal to declare certain people born less worthy of well-being; a. k. a. the thing that gets bundled with Harrison Bergeron-style pressure toward self-ensmallening to produce Nietzsche's 'slave morality', per Metaphysiocrat's commentary on Alexander's commentary on Nietzsche.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
Communists who oppose other communists get called fascist. ("The only people we 'ate more than the Romans are the ----ing Judean People's Front!")
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
Schmitt differentiated between "inimicus," the private enemy with whom you disagreed about e.g. tax policy, and "hostis," the public enemy whose way of life is fundamentally incompatible with yours and who threatens your ability to continue your way of life.
cf. Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
17d ago
Purity test as in not doing a massive regime change war in Iran?
Iran as in the regime sponsoring every pack of rabid bugsnipes from here to Timbukthree for the past 47 years?
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
20d ago
Then they could have let Germany do the inspections; they weren't gun-ho supporters of the Iraq invasion, but could be trusted not to look the other way knowing at whom any Iranian nuclear weapon would be aimed.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
22d ago
blowing up random middle eastern countries for Israel
I would take issue with the 'random' part; the countries attacked by the United States tend to be the ones loudly calling for the Jews to be driven into the sea, and sponsoring groups attempting to carry out that mission. (cf. the Book of Esther)
Should I go through the list and address every one of them?
That would be how one would back up the assertion that
None of these people were killed solely for being trans.
If a trans person is murdered, and a cis person would not have been murdered ceterus paribus, that counts in my book as 'murdered for being trans', just as a black person who is murdered, if a white person in the otherwise exact same circumstances would not have been murdered, was killed for being black.
but I would be hard-pressed to find conservative parents who maintain gender standards so much that, should their son play with dolls, they declare him a girl.
No, they try to shame and bully him into not playing with dolls.
Is there some sort of epidemic of parents grooming their children into being homophobic bigots that I'm unaware of?
Yes. People aren't born with the desire to victimise gay people, just as they aren't born with the desire to victimise any of the other categories of people their families teach them to hate. (Readers of a certain age might remember a Public Service Announcement that said "Hate is a four-letter word. So is love. Which one will you teach your children?")
I'm confused on what you mean by extending the maxim
Extending it to "A person hypothetically causing negative externalities does not give you unlimited licence to persecute them, even if not doing so means that the externalities will continue."
But I think this is an absurd hypothetical and to my knowledge a male has never been assigned female at birth, barring rare cases of malpractice or intersex babies. If I was somehow assigned female at birth despite clearly being male, I would suspect that the nurse who did it had a screw loose in her brain. It could even get as bad as filing a malpractice lawsuit due to potential knock-on effects from having the wrong marker.
The hypothetical at which I was aiming was one in which you, with your current mind, had been born with female parts. Would you, in that case, feel that the 'F' marker was viscerally wrong? (Or would you look between your legs and conclude yourself to be a woman? In that case, you would be what Ozy Brennan calls 'cis-by-default'. [Thing of Things, January 2015])
Hence we use other markers, which should be kept accurate if they are to be useful.
But 'what do you have in your pants' isn't very useful outside a very narrow set of circumstances; 'what did you have between your legs when you were born' isn't useful even then!
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
23d ago
Is it not correct to use that marker?
That is the question at hand! The Red Tribe says it is; the Blue Tribe says it isn't.
please give me a specific case where something like this has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender#2020s
Note the 2022 murder of Luo, a trans-woman in Wuhan who was murdered while using the men's restroom.
What standards? That you have to be honest about what you were born as?
That 'what you were born as' is anyone else's business.
I thought we did away with gender standards entirely.
Many people are still attempting to maintain them.
Has this ever actually happened?
See above.
normal people are not allowed to groom children into living an alternative sexual lifestyle, so trans people should not be allowed to do that either.
There's a difference between 'groom children into living an alternative sexual lifestyle' and 'make it harder for parents to groom children into being homophobic bigots'.
Which standards do you think are stricter than the ones normal people are held to?
The standard where someone existing as gay or trans gets equated to 'grooming'.
First, what externalities do conservative pundits even cause?
Making society less friendly to people who don't fulfill 100.00% of a certain narrow concept of 'normality'.
Second, the alternative to murder is speech. If anyone had an issue with Charlie Kirk, they could just talk to him.
Yes! We are in agreement on this! I am merely extending that maxim to make a general rule!
I'm not sure what difference this makes.
(I'm guessing that you are a cis-man; if you are a cis-woman, transpose the genders in the following.)
I'm asking how you would feel if you had been assigned female at birth, and they put an 'F' marker on your documents, as that is closer to what a trans-woman goes through when her documents carry an 'M' marker.
Police regularly use identification to catch criminals. If identification is not accurate, that makes their job harder. I benefit from police being able to quickly and accurately identify people.
Hence the photograph. Also, there do exist trans individuals who absent close examination would be more accurately identified by their post-transition gender.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
23d ago
Their capacity for violence is so low as to be a non-issue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
23d ago
When are we going to start re-diagnosing Nymphomania and Satryomania?
I believe the current term is 'hypersexuality'.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
23d ago
Because we don't want women to engage in political violence any more than we want men to do so, and we stand on much firmer ground in condemning such if women have the same avenues to pursue peaceable change.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
23d ago
trans people must use the correct gender marking (i.e. gender assigned at birth)
Kiiiind of begging the question here....
I am going to assert that there are vanishingly few cases where a trans person has faced violence simply on the basis of being trans and nothing else.
Only in the sense that would define most victims of anti-Black violence in the Jim Crow era as not 'simply on the basis of being Black and nothing else'. The modal case of anti-Black violence in that time and place was something along the lines of 'white person Big Mad because black person insufficiently obsequious', or 'black person expects to be paid previously-agreed-upon wages rather than whatever pittance white employer feels like after-the-fact'. These aren't technically, in the narrowest sense, a Black person facing violence simply on the basis of being Black and nothing else; however, they were precipitated by a Black person 'thinking he's as good as a white man', something he has every moral right to be able to do without risk to life or limb, and thus, practically, they round off to that description.
Anti-trans violence follows a similar pattern: some victims are targeted on the basis of 'being trans while thinking of oneself as an equally valid human being rather than a horrifying, disgusting freak'; some are targeted on the basis of 'not performing one's assigned gender to the satisfaction of the Community'.
I don't believe that mere speech is violence.
Speech isn't violence per se, but some speech can carry the implication of impending violence, or can serve the function of coördinating violence; the targets of said speech can't always tell the difference.
I just haven't seen a case yet that could support the assertion that there are people who want trans people dead or genocided
No, their first preference would be terrifying them into living by the standards of their assigned gender (which are younger than the New York Times crossword puzzle) no matter how miserable it makes them.
There are no roaming death squads of extremists hunting down trans people
No, just individual bad apples and a barrelful of bystanders who would never personally do anything so vulgar as beat up a todger-bearer-at-birth for being insufficiently masculine, but who don't see it as being as bad as a 'normal' person suffering the same fate. (With their definition of 'normal' being less 'people on the bus' and more 'people at the church sponsored ice cream social'.)
they are interested in making sure that trans people don't inflict negative externalities on society
...and just happen to have much stricter standards for 'externalities inflicted by trans people or other non-conformers' than they have for 'people they consider Normal'.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, we have the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
...whom they were interested in making sure didn't inflict negative externalities on society. That did not justify his being killed, because there are worse things than someone causing negative externalities and getting away with it. We expect the people-of-hair-colour, if the only alternative is the murder of people for their political opinions, to absorb the externalities caused by conservative pundits; the same applies to church-ladies being expected, if the only alternative is a combination of State repression and vigilantism making people terrified to put a single toe outside the closet, to absorb the externalities caused by non-heteronormative identities and/or lifestyles.
Why the quotes around biological reproductive system?
I'm guessing it was a direct quote from the statute in question.
If I was trans, I would shrug and just accept the "M" designation on my license.
What if you were trans in the other direction, identifying as male, but assigned female at birth?
To the extent that I would have a problem with the current state of affairs, I would find that the entire licensing regime that the government imposes on the people -- forcing them to register and pay fees in order to drive and participate in society -- is the actual problem here, not merely an unpreferred gender marker. But my stance is that it's not worth it to fight the licensing regime and it's better to comply. Hence, too, I wouldn't care about having the "M" on my license. It seems rather silly to me to question and reject one social construct (gender) while being completely subservient to another (driver's licenses).
And my biggest point is that this shouldn't even be worthy of discussion. If you're going to accept that the government has the right to force you to get licensed, who cares what kind of silly labels they give you?
The difference is that there is, at least theoretically, a legitimate government purpose in issuing and requiring driver's licences; I benefit from bad drivers not being allowed to operate multi-ton machinery on the same roads I use, whereas I do not benefit from requiring said licences to list what kind of gametes the operator of said machinery produces (very few motor vehicles are operated using the gonads), or for that matter, anything other than the licence-holder's name, date of birth, and photograph.
I will concede that there is an argument to be had as to whether the licencing regime accomplishes this purpose, especially in Miami, where per Dave Barry, "everyone follows the traffic laws of his or her own country or planet of origin".
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
24d ago
the same people who celebrate displays of pride by every country but their own.
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
29d ago
Spelling/grammar corrections and puns; two things of which I will never tire!
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1mo ago
Whether, as a result of the difference in identified gender, you do anything to them that they don't want. (E. g. the matter of Carlita RodrÃguez.)
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1mo ago
Where does "No, but one can get arbitrarily close." fit in your schema?
(The road to wisdom?/Well, it's plain/and simple to express./Err, and err,/and err again,/but less, and less, and less.) --Piet Hein
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1mo ago
That was written in a very different time, when food was a lot less abundant, and there was always room for more people to contribute to its production even if they were what economists call 'unskilled'.
When Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes to feed the five thousand, he didn't make any attempt to deny them to 'men who did not work'. It took nearly twenty centuries, but we have multiplied our loaves and fishes, and much else besides, to where we can feed not five thousand, but eight billion. (Is this one of the "greater things than these" alluded to in John 14:12?)
Celestial-body-NOS
🇺🇸 Noli tangere naves nostras.
1mo ago
That depends on what kind of government exists in China. I would be a lot less worried if the unified Chinese government were a multi-party democracy with strong civil liberties.
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