Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
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User ID: 290
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
8hr ago
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not endorsing the examples as the true definition of 'man' and 'woman', merely stating them as examples to support my statement that not all biological divisions are unchangeable.
(Man, woman) can mean 'has (XY, XX) chromosomes', 'was born with (dangly bit, hole)', 'currently has (dangly bit, hole)', 'has (high, low) T/E ratio', or 'identifies as (man, woman)', and there may be still more possibilities. The first four are all biological in nature, and all of them are potentially useful in different biomedical contexts; two of them we have the ability to change, and two of them we do not as yet.
I'm sure you can see the flaw in the argument that 'the first two criteria given are the true definition of biological sex because biological sex is unchangeable, and biological sex is unchangeable because it is defined by those criteria.'.
(I'm not asserting that that is your reason for choosing those criteria, if indeed you do so. If you have some other reason for defining it that way, to which you would adhere in a hypothetical world in which they were changeable, or if you define 'man' and 'woman' by some other factor, I am willing to consider your arguments.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
14hr ago
Two wolves and a sheep....
I suspect that ethnic animus is inversely proportional to living standards, which are downstream of energy supply. If so, then the Greens are one of the most anti-immigrant parties, and AfD, in supporting nuclear energy, might very well contain the seeds of their own destruction.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
14hr ago
Why have you stopped at that point in particular?
Those are definitions of 'man' and 'woman' which are both biological and alterable with the tech package of our current civilisation.
Why not say that anyone who can hold a baby is a woman, and anyone who can throw a punch is a man?
Because, under that definition, almost everyone would be simultaneously both a man and a woman.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
15hr ago
That movement is still alive and well. Criticism of it can be voiced more openly now, but it still holds key institutions and its supporters are as entrenched as always.
I hope that that doesn't change in either direction. I do not agree with what the 'gender critical' say, but I also do not trust anyone with the power to make them shut up.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
15hr ago
· Edited 15hr ago
So not only is a woman "anyone that identifies as a woman", not really answering the question of what a woman is, what they're identifying with is an identity, thus also not telling us anything about what the act of identifying is supposed to be, and also the type of identity they're identifying with is a gender identity, "gender" being the category that encompasses men and women.
In other words: a woman is anyone who identifies with identifying as a woman.
It's not turtles all the way down; the first step, the foundation, comes from the peaks of the bimodal distribution: there are a large number of people who have XY chromosomes, a 🍆 between their legs, a higher T/E ratio, and a certain mental aspect that (if they have it at all) is of a certain type; there are a similar number of people who have XX chromosomes, a 🌮 between their legs, a lower T/E ratio, a different type of that mental aspect (if they have it at all).
To a first approximation, we call the first group 'men¹' and the second group 'women'. Then, we sort out the edge cases, including those in which the various characteristics do not align with each other, and those in which they impart a visceral feeling of wrongness to their possessor.
I appreciate the efforts to come up with a coherent answer in the aftermath of Matt Walsh's documentary, but I think you guys still have a long way ahead of you.
There was a time when the Abolitionists had a long way ahead of them.
What would be an indicator of bad faith?
The following account is an attempt to construct the strongest possible such indicator:
Henry has a long history of opposing gender transition, same-gender relationships, and gender-nonconforming behavior, especially among men. He has multiple criminal charges for harassing and assaulting men, and women he thinks are men, for not living up to his standard of masculinity, including three assault charges for attacking gay couples, one assault charge for trying to hit a coworker's hand with a hammer when the coworker came in wearing pink nail polish applied by his daughter, one assault charge for shoving a visiting Scotsman into a wall for wearing a kilt (Henry wound up in hospital), one charge for leaving a wood-chipper (with an "Insert groomers here" sign" on the front lawn of a local bar owner who hosted a (21+) drag show, and two charges for beating up women who were attempting to use the men's lavatory (one trans, one when there was a long line for the ladies' room).
A public referendum is held on the question of whether trans individuals ought to be allowed to use the WC of their identified gender; Henry campaigns vehemently against it; despite this, or perhaps because of it, the referendum passes with a clear majority,
The next day, Henry announces: "I now identify as a woman; therefore, you either have to let me use the women's room, or make the [redacted]s use the men's room! Either way, they'll get what's coming to them if they don't man up, ha ha ha!"
I would state with a minimum of 95% confidence that Henry is acting in bad faith.
¹Originally we called them 'were-men' and the other group 'wif-men'; 'man' without prefix was gender neutral.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
86 = get rid of, originally a code of uncertain derivation referring to a restaurant expelling a customer who has become tired and emotional as a newt; 47 = 47th president; someone apparently confused '86' with 'deep six' (from the standard depth of a grave) and thought it was a death threat.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
Again, what would they be identifying with?
The gender identity which has a lot more people born with 🌮 than with 🍆.
Hiw would you know? How do you know that the trans women that do put on a dress and whatnot aren't lying?
It was revealed to me in a dream. I can make an educated guess; in the absence of indicators of bad faith, I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
I meant the 'hormones and secondary characteristics mediated by hormones' definition, and the 'what plumbing one currently has' definition.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
2+2 had a different answer than the 4 that was a correct answer.
2 + 2 = 5, for large values of 2.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
I'm more than happy to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with Somalians and aboriginals etc., and to help them achieve the most they can with their inherent abilities.
a standard of living and civilization beyond their ability to maintain.
The standard of living people can maintain themselves is orthogonal to the standard of living they deserve. Our ancestors did not deserve to bury half their children before their fifth birthdays, even if they could not maintain a low infant mortality rate themselves.
We (with the exception of Social Darwinists and others of that kidney) expect society to give many people within a racial group 'a standard of living beyond their ability to maintain', e. g., children, the elderly, and the disabled. I am simply advocating that this standard be applied to the 'Human' race.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
For any purpose that is. if you aren't interacting with the trans individual's body, any of your beeswax.
(Also, some definitions of 'biological sex' can be changed.)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
'Woman'.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
1d ago
If she identifies as a woman, yes. (I doubt there are any transwomen fitting those specifications, though.)
If he is lying in order to pivot progressives to maintaining the black-and-white 1-bit oversimplification he was taught back when he was knee-high to a grasshopper, no.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
I believe that that is addressed in the fifteenth chapter of the Gospel According to St Luke.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
So effeminate men are women, actually?
Not unless they identify as such.
And trans women, who aren't adopting the female gender role well enough aren't actually women?
They still identify as women, they're women.
(Perhaps you're thinking of gender presentation?)
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
Yes; Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and H. sapiens sapiens.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
what is a woman?
For most purposes, a woman is someone who either (a.) is of the gender identity found more commonly in people born with vulvas, or (b.) has no gender identity and has a vulva.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
Sapir and Whorf are doing the opposite of rolling in their graves right now.
What about C. S. Lewis?
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
2d ago
Sometimes I wonder if there's anyone left anywhere who actually believes this.
I don't know whether it is possible to achieve, but it would be a good outcome if it were, and I believe it is every person's duty to put their greatest effort towards it.
Those of us who try, even if we are not successful, will be able to stand before the Ultimate Judge and say that we did not fail to do our utmost.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
· Edited 3d ago
How is talking to your daughter going to reduce the number of potential perpetrators?
Well, for one thing, if her date tries to force himself on her using one of the aforementioned excuses, he is less likely to gain her acquiescence and more likely to end up with a face full of pepper spray, a kick to the nadgers, and/or a court summons.
Or are you talking about a different kind of action you are simultaneously undertaking to affect wider society?
Yes. I am referring to the arcane art known as 'teaching my sons that a woman is entitled a veto over her nether regions, and cannot forfeit it by inchastity.'
do you also simultaneously advocate for the mass importation of men from countries notorious for a comparatively more 'laisser-faire approach to consent', so to speak?
I reject the framing of 'importation'. Immigrants are human beings with agency, who choose to relocate; they are not widgets brought in by the container-load.
However, I am in favour of (1.) more efforts to educate immigrants from such countries that women in the West have the right to say no themselves, without the involvement of a husband or a male relative, and that a woman not being under the control of a man does not make her a public accommodation, and (2.) prosecuting brown rapists to the same degree as white rapists.
Do you also teach your children that the most important consideration while crossing the street is whether or not the light says they are owed the right-of-way, and not whether or not the fast-travelling vehicles actually stop?
No, but I would teach them that a driver who runs over a pedestrian does not become less liable because the pedestrian assumed that they would adhere to the traffic laws.
Given the fallout of the #MeToo movement in the past few years, is it not questionable whether the most vocal proponents of a maximalist approach to consent are not also themselves prone to consent infractions?
They are certainly not immune to such, but someone who publicly avers that, if a woman does XYZ, he is entitled to coitus with her regardless of her preferences, and to take it forcibly if she does not agree, is probably (1.) more dangerous, and (2.) not someone I want raising children.
Isn't that the crux of the matter? If her being intoxicated invalidates her 'enthusiastic consent', his being intoxicated also invalidates his own 'enthusiastic consent' to the rape, he is being falsely accused of what he did not consciously engage in.
Perhaps there was a mis-communication on my part. I am not at this time addressing the cases in which Alice and Bob were both drunk, did the dance with no pants, and Alice or Carol accuses Bob the next morning of rape. I am referring to the simpler case in which Alice does not want to be intimate with Bob, makes this quite clear to him, and he forces himself on her anyway. In that case, Bob is guilty of rape, and his guilt is not lessened one iota because Alice was three sheets to the wind.
Until they get back to civilisation....
If
And if they don't, what stops Alice from channeling Lorena Bobbitt?
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
in a way that doesn't unfairly create a duty to one side.
It doesn't create a duty to one side.
If Alice controls the only safe shelter, she is obligated not to deny Bob access to it without a Good Reason.
If Alice demands sexual favours from Bob as a condition of shelter access, Alice has committed rape.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
3d ago
I think a better question would be, "Why does he think he is justified in refusing her?".
Some possible answers to that question might lead one to the conclusion that he is justified, such as "I let her in last night and she tried to stab me.".
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
4d ago
Is he obligated to provide her with shelter?
If he controls the only safe shelter, he is obligated to not prevent her from using it.
Celestial-body-NOS
Liberalism has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.
4d ago
Some things have to be believable; to abbreviate a Chesterton quote, people might or might not believe a story that Gladstone was haunted by Parnell's ghost, but they would not at all believe that Gladstone slapped Queen Victoria on the back and offered her a cigar.
See also the "Would you be more surprised to find a walrus or a fairy on your doorstep?" debate from two years ago.
The Gettysburg address may have been the tipping point, but the writing was on the wall with the railroad and telegraph.
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