Iconochasm
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User ID: 314
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
2mo ago
Neat. When are the courts going to clarify how much power they have to drive foreign policy like that?
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2mo ago
result of the due process he was entitled
What exactly does this mean to you? I feel like everyone arguing this is just treating "due process" as an incantation. The part of the process that was missed was that they were supposed to fill out an extra form before doing exactly what they did.
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2mo ago
The number of illegal immigrants in the US has stayed pretty constant over the past couple decades
Why do you think this is true? There was a huge spike in illegal and quasi-legal immigration during the Biden administration.
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2mo ago
You seem to have strange assumptions about people's state of mind when the first thing you think of when someone engages in PR to help return a family member from a notoriously violent prison to the country they were illegally deported from is that they are "chasing a fat legal payout" instead of maybe wanting to help out their family member who had an injustice done to them. Of course her children having quoted "disabilities" is further evidence for this somehow, alright.
Did you miss the details where the wife in question filed a restraining order against him for repeatedly beating her to the point of injury? That seems to have ended in dismissal when she didn't show for the final hearing, so maybe she was just playing games.
Apparently it is "my brain on legalism" to demand due process and rule-following from the authority that governs everyone's lives and controls untold power. The founders would be seizing in their graves.
"Brain on legalism" is a nice way to say "I think a lot of people are full of self-serving shit". Are you one of the three genuinely principled civil libertarians who is also routinely incensed at, e.g., Democrat governors blatantly ignoring court orders regarding the 2nd Amendment?
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2mo ago
If you read to the end of the linked article, he seemingly was released, except possibly for an unrelated drunk driving charge, the article gets a little vague there.
ICE should have flagged him at the border,
I'm hypothesizing that he came in the same way as his illegal friends and never stopped at a border checkpoint. I don't actually know who is responsible for dealing with a US citizen who has been hopping borders without bothering with any of that pesky visa/passport business. Google searching does seem to indicate ICE being involved in those investigations. Florida holding him for a reasonable time frame until ICE can question him about that seems like it would be germane to solving a potential visa/passport issue.
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2mo ago
Search for "Karmelo Anthony". The comments on his substantial GoFundMe are wild.
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2mo ago
Speak for yourself. I truly do not get the visceral disgust people experience from hearing other accents or languages.
It's not aimless disgust. It's frustration. Thick accents make communication difficult. They add friction to every aspect of an interaction. I don't dislike foreign-born doctors because I just think they're icky for no reason because I'm vanilla and lame. I dislike them because I have to strain every scrap of my ability to parse what the hell they're saying, and a misunderstanding might actually be a very big deal.
Imagine spending a few hours providing customer service for Karens who speak English at a roughly kindergarten level. Imagine spending fifteen minutes and using multiple devices with translators, to try to explain the difference between a square and a circle to a woman who just looks at you sadly, says "No comprendo...", and then goes back to asking for a square circle.
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2mo ago
Lucky for us that was provided "If the government is confident of its position, it should be assured that position will prevail in proceedings to terminate the withholding of removal order. See 8 C.F.R. See 8 C.F.R. § 208.24(f) (requiring that the government prove "by a preponderance of evidence" that the alien is no longer entitled to a withholding of removal)."
So if they do this tomorrow via zoom call, you're going to switch sides on the debate and boldly battle the people claiming that bad things have happened?
From a legal perspective, yes. There's a reason why the courts (including this Reagan appointed Bush supported conservative judge) have been so consistent here.
I'm excited just imagining all the consistency!
Due process applies to government taking action, it is a limit on the ability of government to do what it pleases to people in its jurisdiction.
The government took many actions that it pleased to people in it's jurisdictions in facilitating the 10-30 million.
One easy way to help for instance would be to stop paying El Salvador to hold him there.
Do we have any evidence that this is the case beyond Van Hollen claiming that the ES VP told him this? Given the TdA people we are paying for, that seems like a situation with a high likelihood for misunderstandings.
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2mo ago
In a city in which he has never lived?
I'm not sure the inter-national criminal gang is super strict about territoriality. But sure, adjust in a slightly less probable direction.
Source?
Abrego García was pulled over because the vehicle was observed “speeding and unable to maintain its lane,” according to the documents. Abrego García had an expired Maryland “limited term temporary driver’s license,” which is provided to individuals who are not U.S. citizens, authorities said.
The officer identified eight other individuals in the vehicle and Abrego García advised that he was driving them from Texas to Maryland, according to the documents. None of the passengers had any luggage and all provided the same home address, which was Abrego Garcia’s address, authorities said.
Abrego García allegedly pretended to speak less English than he was capable of and attempted to confuse the officer by responding to the officer’s questions with his own.
Sounds a fair bit like international-criminal gang coyote type work. So maybe re-adjust in a more probable direction.
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2mo ago
I remember something like it happening once during the first Trump administration. Guy was born in Texas to a Mexican immigrant mother. Details are fuzzy, but the gist was that the mother was playing games with the son's citizenship status when he was little to make it easier to travel back and forth from Texas to Mexico and didn't actually have proof that he was an American citizen. The situation ended up getting resolved after it made the news, and a retired maternity nurse remembered the mother and scrounged up some sort of personal memento (thank you note on hospital letterhead or something) that helped confirm the guy's status.
From your first link:
The 20-year-old’s first language is Tzotzil, a Mayan language, and he took a long pause when he was asked if he wanted to hire a private attorney or obtain a public defender. He lived in Mexico from the time he was 1-year-old until four years ago, when he returned to Georgia, his mother told the Phoenix.
I wonder if there's some similar thing where even though he's a citizen, he traveled internationally in less-than legal methods.
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2mo ago
because
he wore a chicago bulls hata confidential informant of purportedly verified reliability named him as a ranked member of the gang.
Also, he got stopped doing what looked rather like human trafficking in 2022, but the Biden FBI told the locals to let him go.
Arguments surrounding the guy's immigration status are irrelevant here. At no point has the administration argued that its obligations would be any different were he an American citizen; it's taken a firm stance that the court has no authority to compel the executive to return someone held by a foreign government. Period.
I'm sorry, but this seems so stupid it's hard to take it seriously. Are you somehow under the impression that orders for deportation are routinely assigned against American citizens?
Does every legal document regarding the sentencing of a convicted criminal to prison have a clause specifying that the government is NOT claiming the ability to randomly throw innocent people in jail? Or do we just assume that people aren't completely retarded?
it's taken a firm stance that the court has no authority to compel the executive to return someone held by a foreign government.
Yes? Obviously? Do you think the courts can, e.g., force the executive to take any and all actions necessary to effectuate the release of, say, Britney Griner?
If the court sides with the administration, there's nothing preventing Trump from deciding that it's easier to send a high-profile citizen criminal to El Salvador than to provide the due process the law affords him.
Are you claiming there are absolutely no legal restrictions on the US government kidnapping and black bagging citizens?
Every citizen is entitled to due process, unless the government decides he isn't is not the hallmark of a free society.
We already live in a society where the government can have minor citizens obliterated from the sky with no due process.
And you ignored all of the questions I asked. I'm inclined to think you don't actually have any kind of a real theory of the law here, and are just flailing out of raw oppositional sentiment.
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2mo ago
If the government took steps to only send him to El Salvador after getting the withholding order revoked by due process, that would be a dramatic improvement to the current state of affairs.
So we can clean all this up with a quick Zoom call then? Don't even need to actually get him out of the prison.
Given that we are paying El Salvador to hold him, presumably we have some say in this. For starters, we could stop paying.
So judges have the authority to detonate international agreements like this? Our foreign policy is determined by any district judge who feels like weighing in?
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2mo ago
Exactly what due process do people think was missed? The guy had multiple days in court, and had a standing deportation order, no? If the government managed to bring him back, sticks him before an immigration judge who says "Your asylum claims are no longer valid due to changed facts on the ground, assuming they ever were, it's fine to execute the deportation order to El Salvador", then is everyone who is upset about this going to nod sagaciously and be satisfied that due process was followed? If they get him out of El Salvador and dump him six feet across the border in Honduras, does that fix everything?
How much due process in general needs to be given to each of the 10-30 million illegal immigrants? There was certainly no due processes when they came in; can we hold the entire Biden administration and Democrat party in contempt?
Back to Garcia, what "options" remain after the government of El Salvador has declined to release him? Do the courts expect special forces to exfiltrate a foreign national from a foreign prison?
I'm honestly baffled how people justify this to themselves as anything other than naked "rules for thee but not for me". Does it actually feel, inside, like standing on principle and not just grasping at any procedural trick at hand?
This great man expressed his unflagging belief that "[t]he very basis of our individual rights and freedoms is the certainty that the President and the Executive Branch of Government will support and [e]nsure the carrying out of the decisions of the Federal Courts." Id. at 3. Indeed, in our late Executive's own words, "[u]nless the President did so, anarchy would result." Id.
Let whosoever among you has demanded prosecution for Blue State governors who ignore the clear and plain SC rulings on the 2nd Amendment be the first to speak up.
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2mo ago
It’s largely aesthetic reasons, but grad-student TAs who speak unintelligible English are a well-known and yet unaddressed practical problem.
Professors, too. I once bombed a midterm in an otherwise easy A math class because the professor asked the literal exact opposite of what he thought he was asking for a major section of the exam. Apparently he noted nothing amiss when all the best students got 100% of the questions in that section wrong.
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2mo ago
Point of order, but the hypothetical was "you have actual skin in the game, and face the risk you're so righteously demanding El Salvadoran citizens endure". After all, if your policy advocacy doesn't result in more El Salvadorans being murdered, then there's no risk to you at all!
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2mo ago
What bloodless cowardice! You won't even risk yourself in a hypothetical. And yes, yes, it's very easy to proclaim bold words about though the heavens fall... when they'll be falling on someone else.
Those lines SHOULD NOT BE CROSSED. What lines? Well, a google search and CNN indicate that it's "the rooms are spartan" and "the machismo-fueled murderous warlords are subjected to minor submission displays". Your unbounded concern for their heads being shaved is truly... something.
Consider that your first rejection dismissed. For the second, you are responsible for the outcomes of your actions - including advocacy. If you advocate for a policy, you bear some moral burden for it's results. And you're, by revealed preference, not willing to even pretend to bet your life that your actions to comfort the guilty won't fall ruinously on the innocent.
I want you to take sixty actual seconds and think about your life. Have you ever been punched in the face? Ever feared for your life by the actions of another? Known serious, frightening Maslow-bottom want? Have you ever actually been face-to-face with someone willing and able to deliver grievous harm? I implore you to consider the possibility that you're actually one of the most coddled, protected and privileged creatures that has ever existed on the face of this earth. Consider that employing your ideals, stringent and untethered even by the standards of the safest and most secure society ever built, may not actually be directly applicable to a different society that was subject to widespread warring-bands raider-ism within the last Macbook development cycle.
It was very easy for Sir Terry to hold such lofty ideals in the unsurpassed safety of post-war Britain. Now that country intimidates and jails people for tweets.
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2mo ago
I criticized the “Handmaiden’s Tale” chicken little-ing on “my team” for years, because unlike the MAGA cult, I don’t feel any compulsion to twist myself into defending whatever insane bullshit “my team” decides to push any given week.
Well, you didn't do it here under that name. If you can link a single example elsewhere, I'll be thrilled to be wrong.
Nobody is crying about an alien simply being improperly deported, don’t be disingenuous. Administrative errors happen, I get it. The problem is that he was sent indefinitely to a torture-prison without due process, while the the government is arguing at the same time that 1: they want to send citizens to the same place, and 2: if they fuck up, there is literally no remedy.
Sorry, just need to stop to clarify here. The prison you're talking about is the one that turned El Salvador from a murder capitol of the world to safer than Sweden, right?
Do you hate the El Salvadoran people? Do you want them to be tortured and murdered en masse by rapacious warlords and banditos? Victimized and preyed upon in even greater amounts? Or is this just the meme?
If not, then maybe that stark difference ought to be taken into account.
And even then, I still don't buy your take. Let's establish some facts. He was deported to his home country, and his own government imprisoned him, as they do with everyone affiliated with the rapacious warlords who murdered and terrorized a fuckton of their people. He already had multiple days in court before judges, and had a deportation order.
Imagine if the US government had caught the "not to El Savador" clause in time, then had a quick hearing where it was determined that his asylum claim was obviously false, and the grounds for the "not to El Salvador" clause were obviously voided by the changed facts on the ground (e.g. his mother no longer owned the business, and the gang he claimed would harm him no longer exists).
Would you suddenly be OK with him being deported?
If we deported him somewhere else, and that country then deported him back to El Salvador, would you be OK with that?
Because your actual logic looks a lot like "We can't deport this criminal, because his native country will do normal things they do to criminals to him", and that might be literally the most perverse logic I've ever heard. Again, it comes back to endless empathy for offenders, and none at all for the people they hurt. It's so fucked up I'm not even appalled. I hit some overflow error and ended up reluctantly impressed at the evil clown logic.
And again, NONE OF THIS justifies being worried about citizens being deported.
I’d just like you to imagine if Biden or Obama were advocating this sort of thing. The people on this website would be calling for armed rebellion.
Per our prior correspondence, which you ignored, Obama did things many times worse (e.g. assassinating a minor citizen for fun) and I never heard anyone call for armed rebellion over it.
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2mo ago
Ok, ES tries a different, more humane method, BUT, for every gang murder above the current base rate, one Humane Prisons Advocate gets executed. You first.
Would you accept this deal?
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2mo ago
A catastrophe like straight up murdering a minor citizen? Should I follow the other side's MO and just ignore inconvenient events like my augmented reality censors them away? Or an abhorrent catastrophe like deporting an illegal alien with a deportation order... to the wrong place?
You guys have been breathlessly, hysterically screaming about endless catastrophes, a new one every week, for literally every week the man has been in office. Remember when he was going to put all the gays in camps and legalize rape and Handmaiden's Tale and kill all the Muslims and start WW3 and start WW3 and start WW3? Of course not. Because remembering all the failed hysterical catastrophizing might offer some perspective.
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2mo ago
It is if you can find a prosecutor with half the flexibility of a progressive district judge.
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2mo ago
You know what's poison to discourse? Being expected to take every bit of speculative, hysterical catastrophizing with more deadly seriousness than actual things that literally happened. Member when the president had a 16 year old US citizen murdered by flying robot assassin? I member. How does that compare to an off-hand comment that was immediately followed with caveats about legality? Is it a thousand times worse? A million? Are you going to take those caveats as deadly serious evidence of Trump's deadly serious concern for the law? Of course not.
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2mo ago
For having broken what laws?
Conspiracy to human trafficking.
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2mo ago
Trump has dropped plenty of hints that he is thinking about sending American citizens to El Salvador prisons.
Until he makes any kind of effort at doing so, this seems much more likely to be a cruel taunt. Trump is much more understandable once you grasp that he's essentially a right-wing John Oliver type, but less stupid.
Nah, this community is specifically a locus for principled civil libertarians - or at least it was before they started getting black-pilled by the isolated demands for civil principles. The presence of such people here is not indicative of their popularity in wider society.
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