Ponder
3yr ago
I recently read a comment on reddit:
There is a phenomenon called mood-dependent memory that everyone experiences. It's the facilitation of accessing memories when your mood at retrieval is the same as your mood was at encoding. I'm sure you have had different memories flood in when you are in heightened states of mood before. When you get angry, you have memories pop up from other times you are angry. When you are happy, you have memories come in from other times you were happy. The reason for that is that when you form memories, your brain is not only encoding the basal level visual and auditory data. It's also encoding the emotional data in other brain regions, like the insula, insular cortex, and amygdala. When memories are stored, these neuronal connections are a formed that connect these brain regions.
I also heard someone say something along the lines of:
When I’m high I listen to music. When I’m sober listening to that same music it can put me in a better mood than usual.
In the first quote a mood is helping retrieve memories encoded with the same mood. In the second quote the music is helping retrieve the mood of a different instance of listening to the same music.
Where can I read more about the concrete details behind this phenomenon?
Is there a way to reliably trigger recall of a specific memory that matches your current mood?
Could you use psychoactive mood boosting substances to generate positive memories where music is playing in the background then use that same music to retrieve the enhanced mood when sober?
Ponder
3yr ago
I usually try to get them to think of things from a perspective that they haven't considered. My friends aren't familiar with many rationalist-adjacent concepts so I can sometimes share a brief summary of a lesson or concept that might be applicable to their situation and is new information to them.
Generally, I try to get people to clarify their own thinking instead of giving a direct solution. I really like the Socratic Ducking Approach
- Counter vagueness. Ask for specific examples whenever they talk about a general problem. Probe for details whenever they gloss over part of the problem, or start simplifying to fit everything into a narrative.
- Draw out their experience. Try to get them to remember times they’ve solved a similar problem, or encourage reference class hopping (if they’re thinking of their problem as being all about social anxiety, see if they view things differently when they think about parties versus small group conversations). In general, help them gather useful data from the past, so that they can see patterns and causal relationships as clearly as possible.
- Map out the parts of the problem. If you spot implications or assumptions, ask questions that take those implications or assumptions as true, and see if you can draw your partner toward a new insight. Try breadth-first searches before diving deep into any one part of the problem—can your partner identify their key bottleneck?
Ponder
3yr ago
that term really bugs me
It makes me feel kind of uneasy using it, but I think it has explanatory and predictive power. An economist knows people don’t view the world the same way they do. However, in order to explain human behavior you need to dig deeper than a person did something because they like it. Sometimes you even need to uncover hidden subconscious motivations. Models and language that view things as an unattached outsider can help achieve truth-seeking goals.
The behavior still exists whether we explain it in politically incorrect terms or in platitudes and flowery language. A woman might say, “I don’t want to be in a relationship with that guy because he is fun but he smokes too much pot and doesn’t have career ambitions”. Saying his relationship market value is not high enough expresses the same sentiment.
I think the real reason SMV and the related terminology became so popular among disaffected men is because it provides a much more direct and actionable explanation for how they can attract women. Instead of things being vague and opaque the language puts things into blunt terms. Women rank their choice of possible mates by some value system and generally traits x/y/z (such as confidence, physical fitness, social skills) are highly valued in their ranking system. The things they value in initial attraction can differ from what they value in a long-term partner. This explains why some men get a lot of attention on dating apps and others get very little/none. If you want more attention then signal more of traits x/y/z.
Ponder
3yr ago
San Francisco is among the urban centers that had unprecedented population declines during this time. From 2020 to 2021, the S.F. population fell to its lowest level since 2010, erasing a decade worth of population growth in a single year. Similar changes occurred in large cities across the country. New York, Washington, D.C., and Boston each saw outsize outmigration during this time.
Source: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2023/maps-migration/
Some people aren't accepting worse housing they just simply move instead of waiting for conditions to improve. This migration then impacts politics because people bring their political beliefs with them, often causing shifts in the political climate of their new location.
Ponder
3yr ago
Even when you’re in your prime you still have competition. If the competition is wearing more revealing outfits and using filters to improve their photos then you too must do those things to maintain your relative popularity among your competition. Of course, that assumes those preferences are the actual preferences for many men. If men really enjoy more modest women then dressing in a more revealing way would decrease your marketplace competitiveness.
So in the case of the trends you are talking about I think women are perceiving that the behaviors in question improve their sexual marketplace competitiveness. I agree with you that it is totally unnecessary and pointless for young women so maybe women doing this have misjudged the true preferences of the marketplace.
Ponder
3yr ago
That link shows mortgage rates going from 1500 (approx) in 2020 to 2500+ in 2023, while in the same time frame wages rose from 45k (approx) to 48k (approx). In order to restore affordability some combination of the following would have to happen:
- Home prices fall
- Mortgage rates fall
- Wages rise faster than home prices
So when you say you don't think that home ownership won't remain unaffordable for long how do you think the affordability will be restored and how long will that take to happen?
Ponder
3yr ago
I’ve been seeing posts on social media about unaffordable the housing market has become (in terms of home price to income ratio). Many people who don’t already own a home are locked out of the home ownership market because the monthly mortgage payment and down payment required has increased a lot faster than the median wage since 2020.
What impacts will unaffordable housing have on politics? Do you think we might see a shift from identity-based politics to politics more focused on economic inequality?
Ponder
3yr ago
I noticed a recent trend where someone will start an invite only Discord or subreddit and start siphoning the smart/desirable members from public subreddits/spaces. The private subs look for people that contribute value to the public spaces and that fit with the private sub's desired culture. Then they just private message them to join the more exclusive space.
The private sub benefits by getting quality contributions and the new member benefits by not having to deal with all the garbage comments in the public sub. This trend reduces the quality of the public spaces because many of the good posters have moved to a private gated community.
Ponder
3yr ago
I'd like to suggest that grieving is how we experience the process of a very, very deep part of our psyches becoming familiar with a painful truth.
Source: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PHnMDhfiadQt6Gj23/the-art-of-grieving-well
So really any concepts that relate to learning about why human nature makes the problems of the world intractable. Examples: Mediations on Moloch, cognitive biases that lead people to act irrationality.
If someone breaks up with you, or a loved one dies it is almost impossible to deny the painful truth of reality. With rationality if you don't go looking for certain things you can remain ignorant of parts of reality. If studying rationality can cause emotional distress then in some cases it may be better not to look under certain rocks.
Ponder
3yr ago
I have many ideas where I haven’t found another good place to discuss them. Often, they are unrefined theories and I need outside feedback to refine them and find the flaws with them.
My best friend doesn’t have the same interests and background knowledge that I do. Sure, he will let me nerd out about signaling theory or whatever my latest intertest is, but he can’t provide the same kind of intellectual stimulation that I get here.
I also find it to be therapeutic to share ideas that the people around me ‘don’t get’. I’m getting acknowledgment that there are other people that share the same interests and think in rationalist-adjacent ways.
Also, I’d like to give a huge shout out the Wellness Wednesday threads. I really like being able to share a problem/challenge that I’m facing and get multiple perspectives on it. The multiple perspectives help me see multiple ways I can approach something. I feel like there are a lot of high-effort and helpful responses that people have just given me for free and I appreciate that. If I were talking to a therapist or close friend I would get a much narrower (and potentially more biased) perspective.
Ponder
3yr ago
I was reading a comment about how people that learn rationality often appear unhappy. It caused to reflect and think of a larger pattern.
I think rationality can cause people to go through something like the 5 stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. So, while rationality concepts can cause some people to become unhappy it can often be just a temporary state.
Has studying rationality concepts caused you to go through a cycle of emotional states?
Ponder
3yr ago
In the acceptance stage (the last stage) of grief:
Acceptance and hope: There’s a gradual acceptance of life’s new configuration—and a feeling of possibility in the future.
Acceptance means embracing the present, understanding the extent of the loss rather than fighting it, accepting responsibility for yourself and your actions, and then starting your journey toward a new phase of life with contentment.
I don't know why it is human nature that most people have to go through all the other stages before they can come to acceptance. I just observe that it happens. When something unfair/unjust happens in the world many people will become angry initially. Many eventually come around to acceptance over time. Just because things are unfair the rational action isn't to waste your energy being upset/angry forever.
Ponder
3yr ago
I view most internet arguments as a performance where the goal of the poster is to generate as much engagement (positive/negative) as possible. Once you realize that you are merely an observer of the behavior it quickly becomes boring and not worth watching. If you are not getting paid for your performance in an internet argument there is very for little to gain.
If you were watching a play you wouldn’t shout out that the actors should change the ending of the play because you think it sucks. Doing so would only get you kicked out of the theater and maybe you’d have a small impact on some people in the audience. When internet arguments take place in most spaces the outcome is already determined. The moderators and majority opinion of the group have the power to make the outcome be whatever they decide.
If your goal is to change minds the best thing to do is to find internet spaces where people have a norm/value of wanting to engage in honest discussions and debates.
Ponder
3yr ago
rationality doesn't seem to make people very happy
I've noticed this too, but then I took a step back and recognized a larger pattern. This is something like the stages of grief. I think rationality causes people to go through many stages/emotions and unhappiness is just one they can temporarily land on.
If you look at other examples of people radically changing their belief system later in life you will often observe that they go through a cycle of emotional states.
Ponder
3yr ago
I am wondering whether you have interpreted this norm at the same level of abstraction as its purpose.
I think the purpose of the norm is to improve public perception of the club. The founder gets invited into academic circles to talk about the psychedelic issues in the local community. If the club has a good reputation, then it gains more power to influence academics and public opinion.
Since the group is open to the public the typical disclaimer must be given every meeting in case there is law enforcement present and to deter someone who just watched something like How to Change You Mind and probably need more preparation before they are ready to try psychedelics.
There are many interesting people in the club that I would like to be friends with even if they can’t help procure psychedelics. I will make more of an effort to make friends there.
Phenibut is excellent!
Indeed! I’ve spent a lot of time studying it and it has led me to many insights. I wouldn’t want to be on it more than once a week anyway because it dulls my analytical skills and makes me unmotivated to do cognitively challenging tasks.
My ultimate goal is to internalize the lessons of Phenibut so that they persist even when I’m sober. My current research area is Phenibut and exposure therapy. I do things I’m normally afraid of doing sober while on Phenibut and then slowly lower the dose each time so that I need less and less Phenibut to do the things I’m afraid of. I’m also trying to figure out if I can set ‘anchors’ to retrieve the Phenibut mood when sober. Since Phenibut increases appreciation for music I listen to music when on Phenibut. When I sober up and listen to my favorite songs I feel an elevated happiness compared to my base state!
I’m also curious about if you can use Phenibut to have a night where you combine multiple things you enjoy with something you fear. If you ask your brain how was your night it tends to aggregate certain experiences and say something like, “I had a fun night”. It doesn’t always say I enjoyed X + Y but I didn’t enjoy Z. So if you do X + Y + a minor amount of Z while on Phenibut it might be possible to persuade a part of your brain that Z is less bad than you initially thought.
all us shards inside here ought to be looking for ways to cooperate and love one another and reconcile our differences
Yes, I had a very similar realization. I realized that the more rational part of my brain was just trying to protect me from the more impulsive part of my brain that only thinks about immediate happiness. The rational part of my brain is so strong that it can often completely shut down the impulsive part of my brain (such as “don’t go dancing you’ll look like a fool”). I came to an understanding that I would listen more the impulsive part of my brain so that I can have more fun/enjoyment in life, but at the same time agreed that the rational brain is like a wise parent that sometimes has to say no to the impulsive/child-like thoughts of my brain.
SSRIs
I tried Saffron extract and the side effects outweighed the minor benefit I got. My extremities would sometimes feel like they weren’t getting enough blood flow.
DMT
The DMT study was about the safety of extending the state without using other drugs. The other purpose was to see how the body acclimates/adjusts to being in the state for longer. Like how if you’re intoxicated for a long time the same level of the drug feels weaker and the intoxicated reality feels more normal and natural to you.
There will be more studies about how to actually gain therapeutic effects from the extended DMT state in the future.
have you heard of DDREADs?
No, that sounds interesting thanks for bringing it up.
I have heard about designer drugs though. One thing I recently recall hearing was that underground therapists are finding 3-MMC may be more useful than MDMA because it causes less urges to be touchy/feely.
Ponder
3yr ago
Yes, psychedelics are fascinating indeed! There is a lot of unexplored territory in the psychedelic field. That is exciting because with more research I think humanity can find ways to further enhance the therapeutic effects of these drugs. I think in the planning, guide training, and integration aspects of psychoactive therapy there are many new techniques that will be found to enhance the healing outcomes. With enough data I think we may find that there are overlapping themes and situations that occur in trips and that a guide can help influence the lesson learned by asking a specific question or making a simple observation. I also think there are concepts from Multiagent Models of Mind that can be combined with psychedelics to help someone reconcile competing desires in their mind.
There is also a lot of under-explored areas with the drugs themselves. I was reading about a new study where a researcher figured out how to extend the DMT state for a longer duration by using medical technology used to control IVs. There could also be drug interactions that help reduce the variability of psychedelic trips, giving greater control to the user or guide.
Are there any aspects of psychedelic therapy, or a particular anecdote that really caught your attention? When did you become interested?
I tried Phenibut about 5 years ago and it caused me to become fascinated with drugs. I had always just written of drugs as bad and not for me until I tried Phenibut. The first time I tried it was magical: my social anxiety disappeared, I had a strong desire to socialize, and my mood was highly elevated. Phenibut is no long-term solution though (can only be used 1x a week due to tolerance/addiction) and I went looking for a better solution to the problems in my life.
I started listening too Hamilton Morris and he just makes the world of drugs sound so fascinating!
I found a local psychedelic club and those are the anecdotes that really inspired me. People completely and permanently fixed huge problems in their lives. Some have even gone on to start inspiring organizations in the area due to their personal experiences. Some have said that psychedelics have saved their life.
Even with all the inspiring stories and people in psychedelic club I get anxiety and usually just listen and don’t say much. I still have a hard time connecting with people even when there is a shared interest. Perhaps I am intimidated that most people in the club are much further on their psychedelic journey than I am. There is a rule against buying/soliciting illegal substances and I wouldn’t go against the norms of a group I respect.
Ponder
3yr ago
That was a really good response. The unexpected style was engaging.
I used to play Magic: the Gathering and I was passionate about getting good at it. In doing so I was able to attract others into my life who also shared that passion. We would strategize and practice to get better and we would travel beyond the local community to regional tournaments. I could see how I could use that same model with a new passion to achieve similar results.
I replied to your other post about goals/interests and why I feel stuck right now. I don’t currently have a passion that feels like the passion I used to have for Magic: the Gathering. This lack of a strong passion is probably a big part of the reason why I’m finding it so hard to make social connections now.
Ponder
3yr ago
This sounds fun! I'll play along!
Tell me what you would like to do with your life! What are your goals and interests?
I've become inspired by all the exciting research and anecdotes about psychedelic-assisted therapy! One goal is to find a therapist that will take me on as a patient for psychedelic-assisted therapy. I believe that psychedelic-assisted therapy will cause my outlook on life to improve, and may reveal important goals and a sense of purpose that seems to be missing from my life.
If psychedelic-assisted therapy becomes legal I would like to spend my life using my business acumen to support an organization that works in the psychedelic space. I could see myself having a supporting role in running a psychoactive retreat center, or in working for the government in an agency that oversees/regulates the psychedelic programs. I would also like to make friends with psychedelic users.
Sadly, there is a War on Drugs so publicly pursuing anything related to psychedelics gives me anxiety. I'm afraid of legal and social consequences if I choose to further explore psychedelics.
In the meantime my goal is to save up money so I can retire early. My other interests seem far less important than my interest in psychedelics.
Ponder
3yr ago
You don't have "smart" enough people around you? How come?
Because I’m not really even much smarter than average and I get social anxiety in most settings where I could meet new people. At work I can come up with some clever ideas to optimize processes but then people have incentives not to reward me too much because of jealously or thinking that if they give me too much praise then I will demand more money.
I personally took some psychedelics recently
I want to do this under the supervision of a therapist, but the potential legal consequences deter me. It is an excellent of example of where the social games people play resulted in a horrible outcome (locking people up for trying to self-medicate, losing decades of potential research). It reinforces my belief that humans are disappointing and not usually worth the effort.
I appreciate your comment and overall I think you’re right in that I need to make changes in my life in order to get to a more positive mental state.
Ponder
3yr ago
you should be able to … socialize with "normal" people.
I can, I just don’t enjoy doing so anymore.
I get too frustrated that the Overton window is so narrow. If I approach things as a centrist (acknowledge the steelman on both sides) or say something like, “I was listening to Joe Rogan and…” I get treated like a social pariah. People have this attitude that they have to shut down the conversation as soon as someone mentions anything positive about the outgroup.
Ponder
3yr ago
why not focus on all the (contingent) benefits and rewards that come with the “social game”
The better you get at the “social game” the more people will expect you to continue playing it (and at a higher level). I do enjoy money, but if I were to become a manager instead of an individual contributor then I would have to spend much more of my time playing the “social game” with more people.
Since I dislike the “social game” I want to organize my life so that I don’t have to spend much time/effort playing it. I still want to optimize the amount of rewards I can get for the minimal amount effort that I’m willing to expend.
Ponder
3yr ago
I don't see myself as better, I see myself as different. I have slightly improved analytical skills in limited situations, but other people have far better social skills.
I think your point still applies though because if I always view myself as an outsider it will make it harder to connect with people.
Ponder
3yr ago
My interest in being around other people and socializing is nearing an all-time low. I feel like I’m far more motivated by logic/rationality/truth-seeking/optimization than the people I meet in person. I also seem to care far less about social approval than the people I meet. I’m just not motivated or energized enough to play the social games to get positive attention IRL and social media likes. A lot of interactions just seem like I’m pretending to be interested in something so the person I’m interacting with can pretend to like me. Consequently, I don’t have very many friends and my career progress is slower than the people I graduated with.
I’m not motivated much by work anymore because even when I improve something and do an excellent job it doesn’t get me very far. I see people put way less effort and thought into things but they get promotions because they are good at playing the social games/office politics.
Outside of a few places on the internet, like here, I don’t feel like there are many spaces that I can have conversations that are intellectually stimulating to me. Most people just aren’t interested in discussing rationality concepts or contrarian ideas.
How can I become more interested in socializing with other people and playing the social games? I’m currently content spending a lot of time in solitude, but I feel like eventually this lifestyle will take a toll on my mental health. It is already causing me to become more cynical and jaded about humanity.
That's very interesting, and I suspect this effect is strongest with psychedelics. I was able to achieve this effect to a lesser extent with an anti-anxiety drug. Listening to the song can bring me closer to the anti-anxiety effect than I can normally reach sober.
2 other interesting observations I had about this effect:
The song was about deciding what paths in life to take and I happened to recall the HPMOR quote when listening to it:
Now the song and that quote are linked in my memory. It motivates me to fight against the salient injustices in today's world.
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