firmamenti
2yr ago
It was built by Christians but was it still run by them?
firmamenti
2yr ago
The cynic in me thinks that Hamas would do this to themselves, on purpose.
The consequentialist math might work. How many (Palestinian) lives are saved by avoiding an Israeli invasion? More than 500?
firmamenti
2yr ago
Those photos are incredibly tame compared to the videos. It’s gruesome.
The entire situation is heartbreaking.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Seems to be videos now or it being a Hamas misfire. That seems far more likely since their qassams are pieces improvised water pipes turned into rockets.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Israel gains the infliction of terror on a population seeking shelter that they want to displace as much and as fast as possible.
There are many ways Israel could do this that don't involve something quite so brazen, and without this much political downside.
firmamenti
2yr ago
The pro Israel argument is that the hospital had ammo storage under it. This doesn't make sense though because there doesn't seem to be a secondary explosion.
The whole thing seems weird as hell to me. Definitely will be adjusting my priors as this shakes out.
A Gazan hospital has been hit, allegedly by a missile, allegedly by an Israeli missile: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/least-500-victims-israeli-air-strike-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-2023-10-17/
Here is why this seems incredibly unlikely to me:
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Israel gains nothing from this.
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Israel loses a lot from this.
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Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. whatever amalgamation of actors here are opposing Israel have demonstrated that they are willing to strike their own people.
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Hamas etc. gain a lot from this (politically).
The narrative around this is already forming and I suspect that we will never be free of knowing that Israel for sure bombed a hospital (maybe they did).
This will be a major inflection point in this war. Causalities are approaching 1000 people (started at 500, now at 800)
Edit: here’s also why I’m so suspicious of this. If it’s true that Israel bombed this hospital, it basically evaporates any amount of good will I had for them. The 10/7 Hamas attacks were terrible. This is just as bad. Pull our aircraft carriers back, no aid, nothing. Still send in some bad hombres to get our citizens out, but other than that Israel is on its own, and I don’t want to hear any ridiculous moralizing from any us politician ever again.
Edit2: There are allegedly demonstrations happening in several countries now. Extremely dynamic news environment. Nobody knows wtf is going on. Israel is starting to get their narrative together about the cause of this, but it's way too late for them to get ahold of it.
Edit3: allegedly a video of both the initial rocket launch, as well as the explosion: https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1714379242983846126
This matches up with the very first video of the rocket hitting the hospital, and answers why the guy filming was filming (because there were a bunch of rockets going overhead)
firmamenti
2yr ago
NyTimes is doing a good live counter: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/17/us/politics/house-speaker-vote-tally.html
God the republicans are such losers. 3 votes for McCarthy is just absolutely pathetic. Put your stupid petty grandstanding nonsense aside.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Can anybody tell me about the validity of the claims that Islamic Palestinians have occupied this region for thousands of years? Like given a random family currently living in Gaza, when did they likely migrate there? 1000 years ago? It was there a more recent migration of people?
The sort of “we’ve lived here forever this is our land!” Narrative just feels to clean to me.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Man I feel like you are going pretty far out of your way to misinterpret what I’m saying. Am I just missing the point you’re trying to make? This is starting to border on the sort of “Catholics aren’t really Christians since they follow the church and not Christ!” arguments that mega church pastors make before asking for money and telling you about the Ferris wheel.
Anyway I think I’ve made my point. I think people should be Catholic. No I don’t think there is any reasonable interpretation of what I’ve said and clarified that leads to Michael Corleone embodying anything I’m supporting. I also don’t think we are going to sit here and re-derive the entirely of Catholic theology and philosophy in some text posts back and forth.
If you want to be Christ-like and follow Christs teachings (which I think you should do) then being Catholic is good. Anything you’re trying to torture out of what I’ve said beyond that is a misinterpretation by you and I think I’ve done enough clarification at this point.
I don’t think a debate about whether or not hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool is something we’re going to solve on themotte.
What do you think would happen if Israel detonated a low yield nuclear weapon in Gaza? Let’s set up the scenario: they detonate a small yield tactical nuke inside of one of the Hamas tunnels? I’ve linked elsewhere in this thread to descriptions of the tunnels, but some of them could be pretty deep underground.
This would have the result of almost no civilian casualties, would collapse the tunnels, and would have no significant fallout.
Israel/IDF can get on the TV and explain that they assessed the situation and determined that conventional weapons wouldn’t work, and that the tunnels are an existential threat to Israel. They could explain that the yield wasn’t much higher than the MOAB, but that they needed that level of power in a small package that could fit in a tunnel. They would explain that this was done to minimize civilian deaths and that this was the surgical way of detonating the tunnels. Lindsay Graham would be on Fox News within the day defending it. The words “Israel has a right to exist” would be thrown around a lot. We’d hear about how dedicated Israel is to minimizing collateral damage despite Hamas using human shields and how this was the only option and also the most humanitarian option. Israel would take the moral high ground and people would fall in line supporting that idea.
Etc. etc. etc. We could go through these scenarios all day long and come up with ways in which Israel could probably get away with using a tactical nuke on Gaza. It’s very unlikely, but that is the point of hyperbole; taking the point to its furthest conclusion and exploring the territory out there. I think you’re getting into some pretty bad faith discussion by pretending that this is something else, which also has the effect of derailing the discussion. If you want to have a discussion about if hyperbole is a valid rhetorical tool, please do so in the small question Sunday thread.
Why are you asking me to restate this? Yes: I think Israel could do almost anything at this point, up to a tactical nuke, and would suffer almost no repercussions for it.
Yes I am being slightly hyperbolic.
firmamenti
2yr ago
IDF just said that Gazans have about 12 more hours to evacuate about 1M people before they start their invasion. How do you interpret that?
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/13/israel-gaza-hamas-evacuate-un-ground-operation
firmamenti
2yr ago
firmamenti
2yr ago
Okay I think I understand what you guys are saying, and I think we're getting in a bit of a semantics trap here.
I'm saying: a person who was raised catholic, and who went through confirmation, should still consider themselves associated with The Church. When they hopefully decide to go back to church, it shouldn't be a question of which church they go to, since they are...Catholic.
Contrast this with an atheist, or somebody finding faith for the first time. Catholicism might be an option for them, but wouldn't be the default since they have no connection to Catholicism.
It's the difference between returning to something, and finding something for the first time.
I'm not saying that people who aren't going to church and aren't living a Catholic lifestyle should still refer to themselves as "Catholics". I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.
When I say be more like the Jews, it's probably based on a misunderstanding. What I actually mean is:
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Send your kids to Catholic school
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Marry other Catholics
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Be friends with other Catholics
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Make Catholicism a central part of your life (Many devout Catholics I know are extremely charitable, for instance)
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Be assertively Catholic. Be unapologetically anti abortion, anti-degeneracy etc. Be proud of the makeup of the supreme court. Pray before meals, etc.
Maybe this is based on my interactions with Jewish friends, who all seem to be a lot more devout and dedicated to their religion than a lot of my Catholic friends. I don't think I have ever had a person reveal to me that they are Jewish, and have it be a surprise since they are all somewhat vocal about it. I have had the opposite reaction from friends who tell me that they're Catholic, and it be a surprise to me because they don't...seem very Catholic.
Consider Ben Shapiro: what does him being Jewish have to do with his talk show or whatever? But is there any question about his religious affiliation?
To my comment about Latin: the fact that many jews speak Hebrew creates a sense of belonging and camaraderie that I wish existed with Catholics. I hear my Jewish friends rattle stuff off in Hebrew all the time (although it's mostly references to practices, or holidays) - I think that being a Jew and having a language that unites you with other Jews probably does a lot to create a sense of cohesion, and I suspect also keeps people in the faith (not just the language, but all of the things like that).
So again I'm not saying to water the faith down and just let anybody say they're Catholic without really having that mean anything. I'm saying the opposite of that: make saying "I'm Catholic" really mean something.
I think that this stuff will make it harder to leave The Church, and easier to return if you do, since it is more of a central part of your identity than just something you do every Sunday for an hour.
The reports that Netanyahu[1] knew about the attack and let it happen has even less credibility than the story about 40 beheaded/burned babies yanked from incubators, the ghost of Kiev, Trump pisstapes being sent via DNS packet backchannels to a bank's email server, Sadaam yellowcake, or Bush personally planning 9/11.
It's just speculation on speculation on speculation and imo not even worthy of mentioning without a heavy dose of "yeah this sounds crazy but whatif".
[1]: It's a very interesting meme that people have started referring to him as "Bibi". This seems new to me.
firmamenti
2yr ago
I don't know what you mean by this question.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Are you trying to tell me that Catholics do not have an emphasis on tradition? And that an interest or respect for tradition is somehow anti-Catholic?
Could you expand on that?
firmamenti
2yr ago
Somebody elsewhere in this thread linked to a youtuber who seems to be an expert on tunnel warefare. He just posted another video talking about tunnels and countermeasures and countercountermeasures: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mMaQn6eBroY
Really good stuff. Here are some highlights:
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The tunnels are huge
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It costs about $1/meter to dig the tunnels, and takes about a month to do 1km. Labor is cheap, they've been working on this forever, and there are probably a shitload of tunnels.
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The tunnels are huge, and elaborate (at least where he is), there is plumbing, electricity, etc.
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Tunnels are insanely easy to defend. You can just sit at one end 100 yards away from the entrance ,and shoot anybody who comes through the door.
Anyway, this video seems very high information density, and if you go through the guys history, he does legit seem to be an expert on this topic. Gives some insight into what this war will probably look like in Gaza.
firmamenti
2yr ago
You've completely lost me here. I think Catholics should learn latin and should consider their faith a central part of their life and their family's life.
Anything else you're reading here you're misunderstanding.
firmamenti
2yr ago
No. This is borderline not being Catholic yourself especially how others are expressing it in the comments.
An absurd statement. I want my literal sisters, my literal mother and father, and some of my friends, who have fallen off of the faith, to remember that they are still baptized, confirmed catholics and should return to Church with me every Sunday when I invite them to mass with me.
I'm not describing diluting the faith. I'm advocating for a more traditional interpretation of it where people assign more importance and value to it.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Yes exactly. I think that would be a good thing because it would be easier for lapsed adult Catholics to return to The Church.
firmamenti
2yr ago
Yeah admiration is close. But it’s like admiration but also some form of sadness or sense of failing for not having the same thing.
firmamenti
2yr ago
It is the US and Israel that forces Egypt to police imports to Gaza.
You're going to have to substantiate this because it disagrees with basically everything I can find. Israel helped facilitate Gaza building a desal plant, for instance.
Yeah this basically confirms the Israeli story.
There was a lot of videos floating around supposedly of the aftermath. Really makes it feel like this was an actual, coordinated effort to rile up the Muslim world, and that it worked. Damn.
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