naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
Israel's Energy Minister Israel Katz says the siege of Gaza will not end until Israeli hostages are released.
In a social media post, Israel Katz said no "electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter" until the "abductees" are free.
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
At this point the optics don't matter. I genuinely believe that Israel could detonate some tactical nuclear weapons in Gaza, killing everybody there, including the prisoners, and would suffer almost no negative consequences for it.
Israel, and by extension the Jewish diaspora, has an absolute grasp on western media and government. During the American house speaker recall debate, one of the congresswomen gave a speech explaining that we should keep McCarthy as speaker because he has done the most to bring other congressmen to Israel. Major American policy debates center around support for Israel, a small foreign country.[1]
The Palestinian terror attacks were a type of brutality I don't think anybody in the modern western world has ever seen before. They were uniquely horrific, and I think this will be remembered as a turning point in modern history the same way that 9/11 was.
Israel is out for blood, and nobody in the west with any real power is going to stop them.
And by the way: good for them. I, a Catholic American, am jealous (although jealous is the wrong word since that sortof implies an animosity, which I have none of) of the power that the Jewish people have. Much of my criticism of The Church centers around not behaving more like The Jews. Why no Catholic equivalent to "Birthright Israel"? Why not make Catholics learn latin anymore? These are good things that people should do.
(Although I don't think they should be nuking Palestine.)
I genuinely believe that Israel could detonate some tactical nuclear weapons in Gaza, killing everybody there, including the prisoners, and would suffer almost no negative consequences for it.
Really? You really genuinely believe that Israel could break that many taboos at once and suffer "almost no consequences"? Is the "almost" poised to do very much work? Are we to read this as a literal statement of fact about your most deeply-held beliefs, or is there at least a moderate amount of hyperbole at work here?
Why are you asking me to restate this? Yes: I think Israel could do almost anything at this point, up to a tactical nuke, and would suffer almost no repercussions for it.
Being "slightly hyperbolic" amounts to "everything I say that someone calls me on, is hyperbolic. Everything I say that nobody calls me on, well, I got away with it". It's like "comedians" acting as serious political commentators right up until someone finds a hole in their story, which they then say was just part of the comedy.
I don’t think a debate about whether or not hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool is something we’re going to solve on themotte.
What do you think would happen if Israel detonated a low yield nuclear weapon in Gaza? Let’s set up the scenario: they detonate a small yield tactical nuke inside of one of the Hamas tunnels? I’ve linked elsewhere in this thread to descriptions of the tunnels, but some of them could be pretty deep underground.
This would have the result of almost no civilian casualties, would collapse the tunnels, and would have no significant fallout.
Israel/IDF can get on the TV and explain that they assessed the situation and determined that conventional weapons wouldn’t work, and that the tunnels are an existential threat to Israel. They could explain that the yield wasn’t much higher than the MOAB, but that they needed that level of power in a small package that could fit in a tunnel. They would explain that this was done to minimize civilian deaths and that this was the surgical way of detonating the tunnels. Lindsay Graham would be on Fox News within the day defending it. The words “Israel has a right to exist” would be thrown around a lot. We’d hear about how dedicated Israel is to minimizing collateral damage despite Hamas using human shields and how this was the only option and also the most humanitarian option. Israel would take the moral high ground and people would fall in line supporting that idea.
Etc. etc. etc. We could go through these scenarios all day long and come up with ways in which Israel could probably get away with using a tactical nuke on Gaza. It’s very unlikely, but that is the point of hyperbole; taking the point to its furthest conclusion and exploring the territory out there. I think you’re getting into some pretty bad faith discussion by pretending that this is something else, which also has the effect of derailing the discussion. If you want to have a discussion about if hyperbole is a valid rhetorical tool, please do so in the small question Sunday thread.
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Notes -
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
[From the BBC news live tracker]
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
At this point the optics don't matter. I genuinely believe that Israel could detonate some tactical nuclear weapons in Gaza, killing everybody there, including the prisoners, and would suffer almost no negative consequences for it.
Israel, and by extension the Jewish diaspora, has an absolute grasp on western media and government. During the American house speaker recall debate, one of the congresswomen gave a speech explaining that we should keep McCarthy as speaker because he has done the most to bring other congressmen to Israel. Major American policy debates center around support for Israel, a small foreign country.[1]
The Palestinian terror attacks were a type of brutality I don't think anybody in the modern western world has ever seen before. They were uniquely horrific, and I think this will be remembered as a turning point in modern history the same way that 9/11 was.
Israel is out for blood, and nobody in the west with any real power is going to stop them.
And by the way: good for them. I, a Catholic American, am jealous (although jealous is the wrong word since that sortof implies an animosity, which I have none of) of the power that the Jewish people have. Much of my criticism of The Church centers around not behaving more like The Jews. Why no Catholic equivalent to "Birthright Israel"? Why not make Catholics learn latin anymore? These are good things that people should do.
(Although I don't think they should be nuking Palestine.)
Really? You really genuinely believe that Israel could break that many taboos at once and suffer "almost no consequences"? Is the "almost" poised to do very much work? Are we to read this as a literal statement of fact about your most deeply-held beliefs, or is there at least a moderate amount of hyperbole at work here?
IDF just said that Gazans have about 12 more hours to evacuate about 1M people before they start their invasion. How do you interpret that?
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/13/israel-gaza-hamas-evacuate-un-ground-operation
As a far cry from literally nuking the place, and, without intending offense, as you dodging the question.
Why are you asking me to restate this? Yes: I think Israel could do almost anything at this point, up to a tactical nuke, and would suffer almost no repercussions for it.
Yes I am being slightly hyperbolic.
Being "slightly hyperbolic" amounts to "everything I say that someone calls me on, is hyperbolic. Everything I say that nobody calls me on, well, I got away with it". It's like "comedians" acting as serious political commentators right up until someone finds a hole in their story, which they then say was just part of the comedy.
I don’t think a debate about whether or not hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool is something we’re going to solve on themotte.
What do you think would happen if Israel detonated a low yield nuclear weapon in Gaza? Let’s set up the scenario: they detonate a small yield tactical nuke inside of one of the Hamas tunnels? I’ve linked elsewhere in this thread to descriptions of the tunnels, but some of them could be pretty deep underground.
This would have the result of almost no civilian casualties, would collapse the tunnels, and would have no significant fallout.
Israel/IDF can get on the TV and explain that they assessed the situation and determined that conventional weapons wouldn’t work, and that the tunnels are an existential threat to Israel. They could explain that the yield wasn’t much higher than the MOAB, but that they needed that level of power in a small package that could fit in a tunnel. They would explain that this was done to minimize civilian deaths and that this was the surgical way of detonating the tunnels. Lindsay Graham would be on Fox News within the day defending it. The words “Israel has a right to exist” would be thrown around a lot. We’d hear about how dedicated Israel is to minimizing collateral damage despite Hamas using human shields and how this was the only option and also the most humanitarian option. Israel would take the moral high ground and people would fall in line supporting that idea.
Etc. etc. etc. We could go through these scenarios all day long and come up with ways in which Israel could probably get away with using a tactical nuke on Gaza. It’s very unlikely, but that is the point of hyperbole; taking the point to its furthest conclusion and exploring the territory out there. I think you’re getting into some pretty bad faith discussion by pretending that this is something else, which also has the effect of derailing the discussion. If you want to have a discussion about if hyperbole is a valid rhetorical tool, please do so in the small question Sunday thread.
Hey, thanks for explaining yourself in such detail. That's a lot more reasonable than how I read it originally.
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