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Can anybody explain the Polish perspective on the Ukraine war?
I went to Poland and it looked like what Western Europe should look like. The urban areas were clean and seemingly safe. Indeed the people living there are mostly European or Slavic.
My understanding is that most of the tsunami of African or Middle-Eastern immigrants of the 2000s would rather go to Western Europe or Scandinavia for better welfare or economic prospects.
Still, Poland used to get in trouble with the EU for not wanting to take in a certain amount of them.
Moreover, Poland has also faced reprimand from the same union for their policies toward non-heterosexuals.
Why did Poland even join the EU? Did they really need the money so badly at the time?
Now it seems that Poland is going toward ever more alignment with the EU and US.
Are they really so scared of Russia that they would drink the corn syrup and give up on whatever is left of their culture/sovereignty/demographics?
Is anybody of relevance in Poland even attempting to contradict the pro-Western turn?
From what I've gathered from my Polish acquaintances and co-workers* the answer is pretty straight forward, they don't see themselves as "Eastern", they see themselves as "Western" a significant component their national myth is of Poles as the bulwark, standing strong against the tide (Polish spearmen held back the Golden Horde, Polish Hussars broke the siege of Vienna, and so on). More pointedly Poland got royally fucked over by a Russian German alliance in World-War one, and again in World War Two. Accordingly their towards both Russia and Germany today is essentially one of "Never Again". From the Polish perspective joining NATO defangs the German threat while pissing off their ancient rivals/enemies, the Muskovites, as far as they're concerned it's all win. Sure the duplicitous Germans and and effete Belgians can whinge about immigration policy but what are they actually gonna do, Poland is part of the Schengen Zone baby and they've been pulling the DeSantis trick of sending unwanted immigrants to the hometowns of politicians who promote immigration for years now.
As for the Ukraine war in particular, Kiev has long been an ally of Krakow and Moscow has long been a rival/enemy. Pieprzic Rossia, Slava Ukraini.
* Note most of those acquaintances and co-workers are in the Polish military/defense industry which probably colors things a bit.
Thank you for answering the question!
Seems a little bit careless. The Eternal Germ will not let them get away with it.
But now they're submerged in Ukrainian immigrants. It's not the end of it either.
It seems to me that their only saving grace is their unique language, for now.
Once they have the Americans 'helping out' with the Russian threat and the Germans 'advising' and the British 'training' they'll find out that their younger generations only want to speak English.
+if/when NATO finally takes out Russia, I imagine Poland would be in the runner-up for the next 'disturbingly native-looking' country in what remains of Europe then.
If anything, Russia is a good distraction from their little DeSantis tricks, it's not in their best long-term interest to have the Ukraine wedge take out the bear.
Not immigrants; refugees. There is a difference, and the Ukrainian new-arrivals to Poland are legitimately refugees.
The context is comprehensively different from Merkel's third-world invasion. From my reading, the biggest difference is that support for Ukrainian refugees is massively popular in Poland--not just right-to-left along a generic political axis, but importantly, top-to-bottom from the Polish elite to the grassroots.
The new arrivals are, indeed, refugees, but even before the war, Poland was actually swamped by “temporary” workers from Ukraine. But that’s not the point: the difference between Ukrainians in Poland vs Africans in Germany or Sweden is not so much based on legal status, but rather cultural similarity. If US today got mass immigration from English Canadians, who just happened to speak as incomprehensibly as rural Scottsmen, but quickly learn local dialect, it wouldn’t be seen as that big of a deal, compared to mass immigration from Latin America. This is closer to the today’s relationship between Poles and Ukrainians, despite recent history of genocide of Poles perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists (unlike with Blacks in US, in Europe grudges are not so persistently held, especially if they happen to become very inconvenient due to changing political realities).
The issue I see with it is that they're building an infrastructure and customs to welcome and accommodate refugees. This attracts a certain type of people that will not leave once the current Ukraine crisis is over.
It's a slippery slope.
What if Turkey has a civil war, or even Germany, which is starting to look a lot like Turkey, demographically-speaking, aren't they too 'neighbors' etc?
The current wave of refugees is women with children, which is much different than single young males from Africa. If they end up staying, then given cultural similarity, that’s a win too, considering the dire state of demographics in developed world. Germany will not have civil war, and if Turkey has one, Poland simply will not admit any of them, as it did not admit the big wave of Middle East refugees a few years ago, or the ones trying to illegally crossing through Belarus.
What you seem to be missing is that the current government of Poland, as much as they screw around with the rule of law and principles of republican government, they are not hostile to their average constituents, in a way that, say, US government often is. This reduces the downside risk.
They are not hostile to their constituents but deepening the ties to governments that are.
The power imbalance between Poland and US is not in Poland's favor, they will not be able to keep protecting their people.
I think the Polish people is underestimating the risk of staying in the same failing boat as the EU / US.
You keep repeating the same point, and keep failing to look at the other side of that line: of what things look like for pro-Russian countries. They're doing worse. Much worse. The Poles know this, the Ukrainians know this, just-about everyone who isn't an internet contrarian knows this. Why do you insist all of these people are wrong?
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Not least because a typical European country has historical reason to have a grudge against most of their neighbours. Acting on all of those would obviously be a huge negative when it comes to economic and other prosperity.
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I agree--I think that cultural similarity is one of the big factors that contributes to the widespread popularity of welcoming the Ukrainian refugees. A shared concern over an expansionist Russia and simple human compassion for a neighbor's plight are the others that occur to me offhand.
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