This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Politico says that Biden’s staffers are allegedly pushing for preemptive unilateral pardons for controversial figures in order to “inoculate” them in preparation for Trump’s DOJ & FBI. There are some real eyebrow-raisers in this article, so forgive me for this block-quote:
Emphasis mine. It’s not really surprising that Biden wouldn’t be brought into these discussions given how isolated he has been said to be in these last weeks, but the fact that his staffers see an opportunity to extend his personal clemency for his son to a general pardoning of anyone Trump dislikes (including those that might have committed legitimate crimes, like Fauci) seems to me to be another attempt to just have one final ‘fuck you’ against Trump as lashed out from Biden’s lame duck period. As mentioned in the article, one of the major weighing concerns in actually doing this would be the fact that the very instance of such pardons would seem to be indicative of actual foul play, and to add on it would seem to be reminiscent of the pardons Trump gave out in his last weeks as President even as in those cases the pardons weren’t sweepingly preemptive as these would be.
The very fact that Fauci of all people might get a pardon, despite the fact that entire governmental agencies as seen in the House & Senate reports believe that some fuckery might have been going on with gain-of-function research, seems to me to be a huge mistake to make; his pardon if done would have to specifically make clear the timeframe in which that research was going on to clear him for it (if any foul play occurred during that timeframe) if that’s what the Biden administration believes Trump will prosecute him for. This is just one example of a possible pardon and its disastrous implications, too, notwithstanding the other rumors of Biden pardoning SBF or whomever else (which would also be another thing that could be explosive given conflict-of-interest).
Can someone explain how exactly a preemptive pardon works? I'm struggling to understand how a legal system would allow someone to be forgiven for a crime they haven't been charged or found guilty of yet?
The American Presidential pardon is a Constitutional authority, which does not have Constitutional restrictions requiring charging or guilt.
Note that pardons and reprieves are two different concepts here. A reprieve is probably closer to your concept, but the rule of law issue is the lack of relevant restrictions to it's use.
In the American political tradition, due to Constitutional supremacy, Constitutional authorities can only be checked by other constitutional authorities. In areas of shared jursidiction this allows contestation (i.e. the President is the only constitutional authority to be the Commander in Chief of the military, but the Legislature has the constitutional authority to regulate the military), but in areas without shared Constitutional jurisdiction the branch without Constitutional authorization cannot infringe on the constitutional authority of the branch with it.
In this case, the Constitution clearly demonstrates there is a limit (cases of impeachment), and even an alternative (Reprieves), which indicates that the authors considered the merits of limits, but the limit of 'must be charged or found guilty' is not one of them. As the President doesn't have a constitutional limit on pardons, and the Constitution does not allow Congress to restrict pardons, there is no legal basis for restricting the execution of the highest law's explicit authority.
I don’t think the crime needs to be charged to be pardoned, but I do think it needs to be specified. Look at the text of the constitution, it refers to the pardoning of offenses, not the pardoning of persons. You should have to specify the offense.
It doesn't say the president has to state the particular offenses in question. And so he doesn't.
"Which offenses?" "All of them." Seems possible given how simple that statement in the Constitution is.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link