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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

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I think that the leaders perform more like PR function and due to their power we cannot really think of terms we use for common men. Zelensky definitely played a role of inspiring leader and helped a lot in this war. But I suspect that Ukrainians would have fought bravely regardless and they are real heroes.

When people resist occupation risking their lives like in Bucha or the conductor was shot for refusing to play at the occupiers' concert, they are real heroes. If a robber comes to your house and at the gunpoint demands you to give all valuables, it would be insanity to refuse because your life is more valuable. However, during the war you are defending your country and if you are a civilian who decides to resist despite torture and risk of death then you are a hero. Many many Ukrainians turned out to be heroes.

There has been no independent inquiry in Bucha. It’s Ukraine / NATO claims without any real evidence for anything. No photographs of the faces of the victims, no consulting the family of the victims. Some of the corpse piles were surrounded by Russian aid packages, so to me it’s more likely to be “Azov killed innocents who took Russian aid” than “Random professional Russian soldiers randomly killed innocents after giving them aid packages”.

  • -10

no consulting the family of the victims

another blatant lie, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre :

Businessman and former 2004 Ukrainian presidential election candidate Oleksandr Rzhavskyy was killed in Bucha at his estate. Rzhavskyy was previously noted to be a pro-Russian politician, criticized the post-2014 Ukrainian government and praised Vladimir Putin. According to his daughter, he had been abducted twice by Russian soldiers at his estate who had demanded a ransom, and during a drunken binge, the Russian soldiers shot him dead.

An extraordinarily convenient line for the death of a pro-Russian politician. I love the idea of Russia being fine with soldiers killing influential pro-Russian politicians in key areas.

This is fake too, I imagine: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0gip7ibW_5Q

I love the idea of Russia being fine with soldiers killing influential pro-Russian politicians in key areas.

I am not claiming that Russian invasion was competent.

This is fake too, I imagine: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0gip7ibW_5Q

Ja niponimaju.

No idea what it is, I do not speak Russian. And RT branding and tiny account and that you posted it does not encourage me to spend time on it.

I don’t think anything would encourage you to spend time on a Russian-sourced claim.

As evidence for Bucha, you provide me with (1) the death of a prominent Russian-aligned politician whose son was murdered in 2018, (2) whom Russia was in contact with encouraging to flee Bucha, and (3) who we are to believe was killed by a random violent drunk Russian soldier, even though with certainty he would have had communication with the officers.

I am… not going to believe that.

I don’t think anything would encourage you to spend time on a Russian-sourced claim.

Oh, I am doing this. I admit that I am limiting it primarily to "oh look what silly thing they are putting as an official claim" and to confirm things bad for them.

But well sourced claims also would be convincing, especially takedowns of Ukrainian lies. I am pretty sure that I become aware of Ukrainian official accounts posting game screenshots as real from such source (but it could be also Oryx retweeting them).

And I believed them as they provided an actual evidence.

I also spend some noticeable time on reading what Putin wrote (that blabbing how Ukraine is fake nation and so on). And self-published reports from Russians.

And treating RT with deep suspicion is well-warranted.

I am… not going to believe that.

Yes, Red Army occupation tends to include pro-russian people getting killed by a random violent drunk Russian soldier.

In similar way how German Third Reich managed to convince people that USSR occupation is preferable (and similarly, how in some areas Gestapo managed to become preferable to NKVD). Both sides put massive effort on self-sabotage.

Going back to ongoing situation. Armies have loooooooong history of murdering random people. In fact, it is really impressive when such murders are non-existent or extremely rare. Which seems to be standard reached by Ukrainian army, but not Russian.

And obviously I am not trying to convince you, but other people reading this (and to have pretext to read more about this topics).

Given that you claim that Zelensky never visited Bucha and that all photos and videos from there are CGI I am not expecting to be able to convince you. In the same way as sometimes I may engage in discussion with flat-earther (or person running false-fag trolling).

Given that you claim that Zelensky never visited Bucha and that all photos and videos from there are CGI

No one claimed this

No one claimed this shill

You claimed this in https://www.themotte.org/post/133/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/19694?context=8#context with

Well of course. I look at it, and it looks like a green screen to me.

in response to

Not really. See say this and that - to fake that you would need massive CGI support and ridiculously sized conspiracy.

Though maybe you claimed that Zelensky was CGIed, while other photos were not? Then lets clarify it to

Given that you claim that Zelensky never visited Bucha and that all photos and videos of Zelensky from there are CGI I am not expecting to be able to convince you. In the same way as sometimes I may engage in discussion with flat-earther (or person running false-fag trolling).

More comments

so to me it’s more likely to be “Azov killed innocents who took Russian aid”

we literally have satellite imagery of dead bodies lying on streets at time of Russian occupation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre#Satellite_images

without any real evidence for anything

This is blatant lie and denial of reality.

Dead bodies lying in the street, in position that look like they haven't even attempted to flee are more suggestive of people getting killed by a stray artillery shot than having been shot. They'd have been running after the first shots, so it'd look different.

In any case, Ukraine is claiming there are 'hundreds of bodies' and insinuating Russia murdered them all without really saying so. More likely is, the weeks of fighting and artillery exchanges killed most, soldiers being dicks / panicking / untrained most of the rest and as to executions, they're quite likely. Both sides have been noted saying they kill or want to kill those reporting their positions to the enemy.

In any case, Ukraine is claiming there are 'hundreds of bodies' and insinuating Russia murdered them all without really saying so.

I never claimed that Ukrainian claims are 100% accurate, and I can say that their claims are not fully accurate. They were publishing screenshots from flying games in the beginning of war and their count of shot down planes is a total fantasy.

Also, there were hundred of bodies, murdered by Russian invading army. And Ukraine has not merely insinuated this but openly claimed that - and as far as I know it was an accurate claim.

Dead bodies lying in the street, in position that look like they haven't even attempted to flee are more suggestive of people getting killed by a stray artillery shot than having been shot.

Even if that is true it reveals complete and blatant lies from Russians who claimed that they have harmed noone in Bucha.

Russia claims that the bodies had been "staged" by the Ukrainian side after the withdrawal of Russian troops were contradicted by satellite images from mid-March that were provided by Maxar Technologies to The New York Times.[81] The images of Yablonska Street show at least 11 "dark objects of similar size to a human body" appearing between 9 and 11 March.

And for:

soldiers being dicks / panicking / untrained most of the rest and as to executions, they're quite likely

that + looting and rape and torture is exactly what is being described as Bucha massacre.

that + looting and rape and torture is exactly what is being described as Bucha massacre.

No, publicly, people are saying Russians 'murdered' hundreds of people. It's all over twitter, for example. If you search for it, tweets pop up, every one saying Russians 'slaughtered' those people, as i if they, in a contested town on the front line had nothign better to do than kill thirty civilans each day.

If you look a little closer, the official claims are 'hundreds of people with signs of violent trauma' which is what you'd expect to happen in a town that wasn't evacuated and where the invading army is getting shot at for weeks.

It's not clear to me why the people haven't fled, did the Russians think having them around would help ? Probably, Russians were never very nice people, and even though they probably know it'd not stop Ukraine from firing at them, they thought 'why not', it costs us nothing and maybe it'd help.

It's not clear to me why the people haven't fled

People outside were very likely to be murdered/raped/tortured by Russian occupiers so most tried to wait.

Also, many has fled and remaining were less able/willing to escape.

as i if they, in a contested town on the front line had nothign better to do than kill thirty civilans each day.

I never claimed that Russian soldiers have good priorities. If anything, I claimed exact opposite. Which is self-proving by fact that they are Russian soldiers.

And I have no idea why you are surprised by that: we have long history of armies murdering civilians for no good reason, often with harm to themself. Russian army has even more clear history of being absurdly evil.

We also have quite good evidence of Russian army murdering some specific people in this specific case.

Bucha atrocities have been very well documented and confirmed by several independent sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

Russian narrative about it hasn't been confirmed, that's true.

the conductor was shot for refusing to play at the occupiers' concert,

This sounds so fake I can't possibly believe it. Yet every single fake news media is repeating it as fact, solely on the claim of a ukrainian authority about en event that supposedly happened in a city currently occupied by a hostile force.

How can nobody in the entire world have questioned this yet?

I would be shocked to discover that Russian army has not murdered any people for trivial defiance.

Not investigated this specific case.

It might not be true but it is very believable. Extrajudicial killings in occupied areas happen very frequently on both sides.