site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 17, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

From where I'm sitting it sort of looks like a plan that all came together as intended. If it hadn't been Ukraine it would have been something else sooner or later.

...

Meanwhile this all looks like nothing but roses for China. They probably told Putin what a great idea it was. They're probably delighted with how it's going.

It's interesting to me that you pretty much blame the herky-jerky USA on the basis of cui bono; but absolve the opaque and determined PRC despite seeing it benefit as well.

The ChiComs are historically capable of extended operations, their collective founding mythology of themselves is based on extended organized effort across difficult to impossible circumstances to achieve long term historically inevitable goals. It's right in their wheelhouse to execute a 30 year plan.

The USA is historically incompetent at the long con. The short attention span of the electorate leaves policy areas ignored for decades, then brought back into focus by a clever charlatan, then lost again just as quickly. Rapprochement becomes heightening tensions becomes Reset Button becomes spooky accusations of pseudo-alliance becomes violent enmity. It's tough to draw a through line across the Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump, and Biden admins; it's impossible, really, you have to pin this one on the deep state to expect it to get done. The USA is simply not competent to that kind of process, there's too many possible swerves.

If only a deep state can do it, doesn't that raise the odds that the country that is basically deep-state-only did it?

At any rate, unless you really believe the idea that Putin is in on it, the plan would have fallen apart had Putin simply decided against the invasion. Even assuming that everyone else in power in Russia wanted to invade, Putin had the power to prevent the invasion; and that leaves the whole operation in that category of fictional plots that depend on the protagonist knowing exactly what his opponent will do.

"keep pressure on Russia and sooner or later it'll do something Russian."

Fuck that's a good line.