This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Here's something we haven't talked about yet: congestion pricing.
Recently, New York's congestion pricing scheme went live. Drivers who wish to enter lower Manhattan must pay a toll of $9. Almost immediately after the toll went live, traffic congestion got a lot better.
From an economics standpoint, the toll has been a big success. Consider, for a minute, the perspective of a person who is willing to wait an hour in traffic, but is not willing to wait 15 minutes plus pay $9. In a world of rational actors, this person should not exist. But in the real world, this person in fact does exist in great numbers. Not only that, but their irrational choice is also clogging up traffic for everyone else, as well as increasing pollution. From a standpoint of utility, there is no question that this program increases the overall utility of the city's transportation system.
There's also the money aspect. This toll raises money for a city that is chronically short of it – despite having some of the highest per-capita taxation in the world. In an ideal world, the additional funds would be used to build out more transportation infrastructure. In reality, the new taxes will end up in the bottomless pit of graft that grips the city.
A few takes I've seen:
This will increase traffic outside the zone as much as it decreases it in the zone. Personally, I doubt this. Near me, when the 520 bridge was tolled, it reduced traffic on the bridge without increasing it too much elsewhere.
This is unfair because it prices out the working class people who drive into Manhattan.
This is unfair because it forces people to take the subways and the subways are full of murderous lunatics.
The city has substituted new taxes for actually, you know, building stuff. The fact that city planning geeks are celebrating this shows how small our ambitions have become. The biggest infrastructure projects now are just... more taxes?
One take I haven't seen but is relevant:
Will people cheat? Here in Seattle, people drive without license plates, have fake temporary ones, register in different states, and put covers over their plates which make them invisible to cameras. You cannot be pulled over for this, so it's basically an honor system. I assume NYC will be similar.
What do people think about these new taxes? Good or bad?
Why shouldn't he exist? $9 per commute is $18 a day, is $396 a month assuming 22 working days in a month. Would you like to be out an extra $396 a month? I mean, I wouldn't, and I work as a software developer (albeit not in the US). And if you're still commuting to work 5 days a week you're probably not a software developer. And I'm not even counting other trips, though in a big city you can probably do your groceries on foot.
Yeah, but your time is worth $X an hour, where X>9! Not evenly, it isn't. My hours at work are worth ˜$25 after taxes but my hours outside of work are worth $0. Averaged over the day, an hour of my life is worth ˜$1, slightly more, which you will note is less than 9. If I had an extra 1.5 hour a day I wouldn't know how to use them to consistently make $18 after taxes to earn back the congestion charge. And you don't even get that, you get two blocks of 45 minutes.
Now, I wouldn't die if I were out $396 a month. It would just suck. But again, these people who are still physically coming into work 5 days a week probably aren't programmers.
Probably, lots of these people are just taking the subway now, which the Internet tells me costs $132 for a month, which is at least less than $396 albeit some crazy person might set you on fire. Notably, people would rather spend two hours a day in New York traffic than ride the subway if given the choice, which has to mean something. Others will have switched jobs, but again, that would be a job so much worse than their previous one that they'd rather spend two hours in New York traffic each day, when given the choice.
I would propose that the most valuable use of your time is neither working nor sitting in traffic.
Socializing, reading, going for a walk, etc...
The reason that going to the dentist is awful is not because you could be working during that time, it's because it's boring and uncomfortable. Traffic is the same for most people.
As a society, it's better if more people do things that give them joy instead of rage.
Would you pay $396 per month if you were in return given two separate 45-minute blocks of extra time each day in which to read a book or go for a walk?
I mean, maybe if you're a high-powered lawyer who makes half a million a year but works 90-hour weeks, you might. Presumably that's the kind of person still driving and paying the congestion charge. Someone to whom money is nothing and time is very short, i.e. someone whose time is actually worth a lot.
In fact not many people are taking the deal. You can tell by how the roads are empty. Presumably they're on the subway now, which I can't imagine is going to save time, what with the delays and transfers. It still costs $132, and then there's the getting set on fire bit which I also can't imagine is giving them joy instead of rage. If the subway were a more pleasant experience than sitting in traffic, people would've been choosing that in the first place.
Even in Europe nobody takes public transport if they can avoid it. This is despite every American urbanist YouTuber squeeing with glee upon seeing it, and despite many people not being able to afford a car at all.
You're talking as if it's about sitting in traffic vs not sitting in traffic. That's not true. It's sitting in traffic, vs standing in a dingy subway station with a bunch of hobos wondering if the train's still coming, vs taking a worse job outside of the area, vs paying $396 per month.
As others have said, this is total nonsense. The vast majority of even the highest earning city lawyers and bankers in London take the tube or suburban rail to work, and to get around to other leisure pursuits too.
More options
Context Copy link
That varies. In most of Europe commuter public transport is barely better than it is in the US (long distance transport certainly is, but not commuter stuff). But in a few big cities like Paris and London most well-paid professionals still use public transport. NYC used to be like this in the 2000s and 2010s, but a combination of huge wage inflation in the PMC and the subway homeless schizo crisis have increasingly led to Manhattan residents with some money commuting by Uber.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes. Please summon the genie or demon needed to make this deal.
More options
Context Copy link
I can afford a car in London. I still prefer the Elizabeth line.
Yeah, I imagine we both know people who make many millions a year who commute by tube. If you live in South Ken and work in the City, you can spend an hour in a car or 20 minutes on the (now even air conditioned) circle line, why would you pick the former? Likewise if you live in Mayfair and work in Canary Wharf.
More options
Context Copy link
Likewise, I lived in London and took the train and tube for years until I started cycling to work. I had exactly one incident (on a bus) where some drunks threatened me after I politely asked them to turn their music down. That sucked, but overall the public transport felt very safe.
In America that young guy blasting music on public transportation is daring people to challenge him so he can fight them or threaten to fight them.
More options
Context Copy link
Yeah, other than the stale piss smell in some stations I always found the tube nicer than the actual streets.
It's odd, because I don't remember especially strict policing, but people seemed to be on better behavior than usual anyway.
Everything is surveilled by CCTV. With modern face recognition software TfL could flag it every time a person "known to the authorities" uses the system. They don't go that far, but I assume they use all available analysis tools on the pictures they pull after someone commits a serious crime on public transport. The 7/7 bombers were identified within 3 days based on CCTV footage, and the technology has got a lot better since then.
This was long before any of that. I haven't been back to the UK in decades
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The toll is $9 per day, not each way. And you can enter and leave as much as you want.
So figure 20 working days a month = $180/month.
I am wealthy so, yes, my I value my time at more than $6/hour. But I think that all rational people in New York should.
Yeah, trains are slow. Driving makes for faster commutes unless density is really high. Although, in a place like New York, if everyone drove that would no longer be true. I'll quibble with the cost though, since owning and operating a car in Manhattan is ruinously expensive. Parking might be $40/day for instance.
In any case, if you want someone to argue with about congestion charges, it's probably not me. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about them.
Personally I'd rather take longer on the Train (assuming no random homeless enemy encounters) than driving for a commute at a reasonable ratio, since the former means I can use my various devices and don't have to deal with parking/the continued existence of my vehicle when returning home
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link