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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   29259 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 6, 2025

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Matt Yglesias made a good point about Trump and authoritarianism:

But here’s what worries me. Nobody agrees with the presidential candidate that they prefer about everything. It is completely normal and appropriate to vote for someone with some reservations or points of criticism. If, all things considered, you preferred Trump to Harris, notwithstanding Trump’s election lies, encouragement of violence, and promises to let the perpetrators off the hook, then that’s your right. There were plenty of other issues in the mix in 2020 as well. What I see, though, from the billionaires who disavowed Trump only to come back to his side, isn’t people saying, “That really was an awful day and I hope he doesn’t follow through on the pardons, but I decided that taxes and energy are more important.” Instead, they’ve gone totally silent on the points of criticism.

And there’s an alarming doublethink about this.

If I were to say, “It’s irresponsible to back Trump regardless of your views on taxes and energy because he’s an authoritarian menace,” these people would say I’m being a hysterical lib.

But if I were to say, “It’s fine to vote for Trump while still strongly disagreeing with what he did around 1/6, I’d just like to hear you say that in public,” the response would be that everyone knows it’s best to avoid Trump’s bad side.

If you’re not willing to voice criticism of the president, even while generally supporting him, because you’re afraid of retaliation, that seems at least a little bit like Trump is an authoritarian menace. I have concerns! And what I would love more than anything is for Trump supporters in the business world or at conservative nonprofits to set my mind at ease, not by arguing with me about whether Trump is an authoritarian menace, but by showing me that they don’t fear him and can offer pointed, vocal criticism of his conduct and strong condemnation of these potential pardons.

That’s how pluralistic politics works: You agree with people when you agree with them, but you don’t shy away from disagreeing when you disagree. And to a considerable extent, the fate of the country hinges more on what right-of-center people choose to say and do if and when Trump abuses his powers than on what anyone in the opposition does.

The article starts with examples of conservatives criticizing Trump in the wake of the 2021 riot and says "...I also respect (or at least understand) the decision of those who’ve decided they care more about other things than about Trump’s low character and basic unfitness for office. But what disturbs me is the extent to which the entire conservative movement has retconned not just the events of four years ago, but their own reactions to those events, such that these days, to be disturbed by them is considered some form of lib hysteria." At what point are Trump's allies tacitly seconding accusations that Trump is an authoritarian and his "movement" a cult of personality, by treating him as though the accusations are true?

Edit: I think discussion of whether or not the 2021 riot should be a factor in the 2024 election is missing the point. Substitute whatever criticisms you think are warranted; Yglesias's observation of doublethink isn't dependent on people not making a specific criticism, it's that refusal to criticize someone for their history of at least failing to avoid the appearance of authoritarian or corrupt behavior can be a tacit admission of fear that the person is, in fact, authoritarian or corrupt. The question I asked is the bounds of when we should make that inference.

Food for thought:

Trump post contemporary with Jan 6th: "The election was stolen, we all know that, it sucks... But you have to go home, we need peace, we need law and order, we can't play into their hands, we need peace".

https://x.com/bennyjohnson/status/1876325245243806027

Wasn't that video posted hours into the events that day, after it was too late to make a difference anyway?

I don't know when it was posted, it does sound like after, but my general recollection is that Trump was not calling for an armed coup, he was constantly emphasising, before and after, that protestors needed to be peaceful.

If Trump had wanted a full on armed coup, he had command of the military at that point, and as far as I know it's never been claimed that Trump tried to issue illegal orders that day. And it is worth remembering that a relatively small percentage of the people at his speech actually went to the Capitol, and only a smaller percentage of them went inside.

On the other hand, if Trump was shocked and appalled at the riot, he could have spoken up a lot sooner. Even this video is mostly taken up with reiterating claims that the election was stolen, justifying the riot while asking for it to stop.

I've seen someone else on The Motte say that Republicans view political violence as an on-off switch, while Democrats view it as a dial. On that day, in the context of the BLM riots that weren't that long beforehand, I think Trump saw violence as a dial. People who continue to see if as a switch either condemn Trump for attempting a coup (switch was on) or dismiss the entire thing as a nothingburger (switch was off).

I've seen someone else on The Motte say that Republicans view political violence as an on-off switch, while Democrats view it as a dial. On that day, in the context of the BLM riots that weren't that long beforehand, I think Trump saw violence as a dial. People who continue to see if as a switch either condemn Trump for attempting a coup (switch was on) or dismiss the entire thing as a nothingburger (switch was off).

This doesnt make sense. Trump is clearly telling people to go home, AKA OFF SWITCH.

Also, on/off isn't about coup/not coup. It is about what the proper police/citizen response is. If people are mullling around you let them mull until they do something other than mulling. If people throw shit, you hose/pepper spray them. If people steal shit or try to hit you at a disarming distance you shoot them.

Coup/not coup is about intent, prep, etc. That sort of thing isn't particularly important to the on/off switch discussion. You can (and usually should) execute a coup in "off" mode.

This doesnt make sense. Trump is clearly telling people to go home, AKA OFF SWITCH.

Hours later, too late to make a difference anyway. Was someone stopping him from speaking out earlier?

He responded significantly quicker than Pelosi and McConnell and there is significant evidence that Trump was spending most of his time attempting to convince Secret Service to take him to the Capital so he could lead his people towards a peaceful outcome.

He was in the middle of a speech at the time?

He really wasn't. His speech ended at 1:10pm. The first barriers were breached at 1:50. At 2:38 he tweeted "Stay peaceful." At 3:13 he tweeted "No violence." By 3:19 the Rotunda is cleared and fitting is moved outside and into the tunnel. The video linked above was posted at 4:17pm, and is the first time he tells people to go home.

Giving a speech preventing someone from speaking seems like a tough argument to make!

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