site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   29198 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 13, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Another abortion case (edit: this article is is based off of and links to a lengthy ProPublica article on the case) finds its way to the front page of reddit. To its credit, it's not the ragebait that the "mother-fails-to-go-to-hospital-after-days-of-heavy-bleeding-caused-by-abortion-pills" seen recently.

The expectant mom had woken up on the day of her baby shower with nausea and vomiting, which turned out to be a deadly infection.

But she had to plead for medical assistance, with doctors waiting to perform two ultrasounds to confirm her fetus had no heartbeat before they would intervene.

Wait, what? Two ultrasounds? One ultrasound confirming no heartbeat wasn't enough? The article heavily winks that it was all due to that crummy heartbeat law:

Experts told the publication that there was ‘no medical reason’ to make Crain wait for two ultrasounds before taking action to save her.

But wait a minute, what does the law itself say? Per Wikipedia:

Section 3 of the Act requires a physician to test for a "fetal heartbeat" (or "cardiac activity") before performing an abortion and prohibits abortion if a "fetal heartbeat" is detected. The only exception is for when "a physician believes a medical emergency exists that prevents compliance." The term "medical emergency" is not defined in the statute.

Okay, sure, it's a little vague on what emergencies are. But I think you could pretty easily argue that a deadly infection is a medical emergency. Especially after you already have one ultrasound confirming no heartbeat.

As the article says, this is one of two cases where someone died upon waiting for two ultrasounds. At what point is this medical malpractice that has little to do with abortion laws? I have to wonder if the doctor is an activist doctor that is morally opposed to the heartbeat bill and is willing to let people die to further the cause. If someone's on the brink of death, you should treat them, legality should be an afterthought. But to wait for two ultrasounds, it seems like saving people was the afterthought here.

Edit: They also turned her away for sepsis without treating her, as The_Nybbler points out. Hmm, seems like abortion laws aren't entirely the reason for her death. You kind of have to treat people for that instead of just shrugging that you can't kill her fetus and then send her home. In fact, maybe the sepsis caused the fetus to die? But they missed that it was sepsis.

I don't understand why people suddenly forget about chilling effects in this context. The government passes a law that bans doing X but it's ambiguous whether some similar behavior Y is part of X. Even if Y is not covered by X that ambiguity might chill people from doing Y if they think the government might prosecute them for doing Y. Even if the government ultimately does not succeed (jury acquittal) defending yourself in a criminal trial is not exactly free.

So, let's ask how the exemption for a medical emergency works. Is the standard subjective or objective? Does the physician merely have to say the magic words "I think there is a medical emergency?" Do they have to actually believe there is a sufficient medical emergency? Is their determination open to challenge by the state after the fact? Maybe you're pretty sure, in the moment, such a medical emergency exists. Are you "the state couldn't find a doctor who could convince a jury otherwise on pain of conviction of a first degree felony" sure? Especially if the alternative is, what, a medical malpractice or wrongful death claim? Your insurance probably covers the latter. It won't protect you from a felony conviction!

These laws fulfill their obviously intended effect of chilling doctors from providing abortions whether or not they have a fig leaf of an exception.

I haven’t forgotten. And while @The_Nybbler insists there there totally were magic words in Dr. Karsan’s case, I observe that this one relies on §171.205 instead of §171.046, and thus uses the “physician’s belief” standard instead of the “physician’s reasonable medical judgment” one.

If Dr. Karsan was only shot down because she didn’t say her own judgment was “reasonable,” I don’t think other doctors are wrong to be afraid of having their words twisted.

The court in Dr. Karsan's case based their judgement on 170A.002(b)(2), a different chapter entirely.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats