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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   30935 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 7, 2022

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Well, I̵ ̴s̷u̸p̴p̸o̴s̶e̷ t̴̮͒ĥ̷͙a̴̦̒t̶̥́ ̴̞̓I̵̟̍ ̷̢͝c̷͜͠a̶̱͗n̷̫̽'̷͖̇ẗ̸̪.̷̢̫̂̍.̷͔̱̏̈.̴̦̳͐ ̸̡̥̪̄o̸̝̅̋́h̸̛̖̗̰̓͗ ̷̤͔̲͑͗G̵̼͒̎͝o̶̯͇͓̓ḋ̵͈̻͈͛̈́, ṋ̴̞̹͉̊̐̀ͅở̴̱̀̎̂͛!̴̖͓̟̬̊̇̓̾ P̴͕̗͚͙̘̏̿̀l̸̥͚͕̺̤̺̙͇̉̉͆̈́͗̃͘̚ë̸̟̘̟́̑̾a̸͈̗̦̟̘̱͓͊̇͋ș̷̱͚͔̤̀̇́͑͜e̶̘̿́͂̋ ̶̬̈́̒m̷͇̓͗͐̔̿̿̚͝ắ̶̲̫͖̪̺́̈͒̂́͜͠k̸͍͔̙̣̰̖̻̩͆e̴̱̤̤͎̟̐̀ ̴̹̪͇͈͚̉̾̈̚i̷̡̖̹͇̤̝͛̽̎̍t̴̻̓̾͠ ̵̭̿ş̶̧͔͖̹̣̃̂̈́͐̚̕ṱ̴̡̜̀͋̉̃̉̃͜o̶̬̹̒͌p̷͍͖̼͔̓̌͜͝!̷̛͉̎́͐̕͘̚

Can we not? Discuss the culture war not wage it is our raison d'etre. Your whole spiel would be much more fitting without the feigned Hey guys rhetorical device. State your point clearly. This might be interesting to discuss but with the partisan trappings splashed all over it why bother?

Perhaps address what they were writing?

Or if it's not for you, maybe move on?

What are you adding here, except for style policing?

Style policing is a valuable part of building a discussion community like this one. That was the entire point of my comment! We have very specific rules and norms around tone and style, entirely separate from the content.

Mentioning this at all is very partisan. I liked how it was styled. What did he get wrong

But at least he did get you to acknowledge the post, if not to address the evidence in any way. That's better than the usual outcome.

Straw that broke the camels back. Nothing especially bad about this post compared to a number of other norm eroding posts I am seeing.

I guess we're on to the "ignore except to subtweet about the stench of evil right wing bare links posts getting worse" step already.

It's sad how predictable it is. Could you actually address his post, as a favor to me?

Nope. Nothing you are saying in anyway makes me think that is a good idea. Perhaps reconsider your approach?

No need to change my approach: you've already explained more than enough about your reaction to the evidence. All that's left is waiting for the "and it's good!" step in a few months.

It's amazing that the same tactics work for you over and over again, but why change what works.

I've explained exactly nothing about my reaction to the evidence. The only thing I have talked about is my critique of how the point was made. You are familiar with the Motte yes? This is very much our bread and butter. Nearly any point can be made, but we have rules and a culture around HOW the point should be made.

It should be plain, it should be written as is people you disagree with are reading and you WANT them to read. It should avoid Boo Outgrouping and should optimize for light and not heat etc. etc.

Could you help him rewrite his post so that people with a fetish for castrating children felt more included in the conversation? That would be a very helpful and productive alternative to complaining about his tone, and double as active engagement with the evidence.

You two could even do an adversarial collaboration on it!

Your conduct throughout this thread has been terrible, and you have collected an impressive number of reports by being an antagonistic jerk.

This not being the first, second, or third time you've been warned, you're getting a three-day ban.

ETA: Increased to 7 days for insults via DM.

What do you think I am doing, in engaging with a topic I otherwise don't care about? I am offering suggestions (which the OP is free to ignore!) about why his approach came across as partisan and didn't I think have the impact he intended. I am much more interested in the meta ideas of how we should communicate in this space than I am in his choice of topic.

I'm far from the only one to have noticed this issue and not even just on this side of the fence. Cultural norms are the most valuable part of this space in my opinion and the way to keep those going is through discussion and feedback on the part of Motteizens. I bear no ill will to the OP, I'm on a sub where we can discuss the The Jewish problem, HBD, Trans castration , furry fetishists and reasoned discussions about tax levels for a reason after all.

I'm not a progressive, even if I tend to represent them here, due to lack of voices.

More comments

Both the ending, and the rhetorical flourishes were meant to be a bit of harmless fun. For whatever it's worth, this was not aimed at your tribe, or even trans people, if anything I was poking fun at habitual conspiracy-deniers.

To be clear, I am not even sure about what your accusation is supposed to be. That's the point of the state clearly rule. I assume you're saying that these people are driving trans changes because they have an eunuch fetish, but it might be because you think they are mentally ill or because you think they are evil. I certainly didn't get you were poking fun at conspiracy deniers.

I'm not clear on what your specific point actually is. Which is why stating it outright somewhere would be helpful, even if you have to keep the rhetorical flourishes. Just a suggestion.

but it might be because you think they are mentally ill or because you think they are evil.

You think my post would have been better if I called them evil or mentally ill? I didn't say any of that because I don't know, and it doesn't matter. The factual part "these people are driving trans changes because they have an eunuch fetish" is enough to stand, and be discussed on it's own.

I certainly didn't get you were poking fun at conspiracy deniers.

A common trope in dismissing conspiracy theories is calling everything a coincidence, and dismissing any personal connections as playing "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon". The point of the other rhetorical flourish - "well, I suppose" - was exactly the point of making fun of that, right up until you see the SOC document literally citing the fetish forum.

Which is why stating it outright somewhere would be helpful, even if you have to keep the rhetorical flourishes. Just a suggestion.

Duly noted, but it sounds like you got exactly what I was saying, it's just that you were expecting there's more to it.

I think your post would have been better if I was sure what your point was. What specifically was the conspiracy you are making fun of the deniers denying. Who denied it and when? What is the light that would come from the discussion?

I think your post would have been better if I was sure what your point was.

Yes I got that part. Sadly, I couldn't know ahead of time what you'll be able to catch, and what you'd find confusing.

What specifically was the conspiracy you are making fun of the deniers denying.

Any one that's plausible but lacking smoking-gun evidence. The one that's the most analogous is woke entryism into institutions with cultural influence, but any one will do - from Epstein running a child-prostituion Ponzi Scheme (before the evidence was released), Epstein not killing himself, to the COVID lab leak or Big Pharma collaborating to discredit ivermectin.

Who denied it and when?

What would be accomplished by listing all the times and places a specific conspiracy theory was denied?

What is the light that would come from the discussion?

  • That to move past shady thinking, I think we need to stop dismissing any hypothesis just because it's a conspiracy theory.

  • That we might need to increase scrutiny on our institutions, because they seem the be very vulnerable to manipulation by malicious actors.

What would be accomplished by listing all the times and places a specific conspiracy theory was denied?

Well if you want us to talk about whether it is a conspiracy or not (as opposed to just making fun of people who think it is) then that would be helpful, no? If your post was just to make fun of those people, then what is it's value here?

If your point is

That to move past shady thinking, I think we need to stop dismissing any hypothesis just because it's a conspiracy theory.

That we might need to increase scrutiny on our institutions, because they seem the be very vulnerable to manipulation by malicious actors.

Then why not just say that specifically? Those are good points and worth discussing. But you didn't actually mention those things in your original post. Are the eunuchs malicious actors? Are they manipulating the situation? If those are your factual claims then make your point around that. But your post doesn't say that. It kind of gives a wink wink nudge nudge in that direction. Which we should avoid in my opinion here, at least.

Is your position that these people are malicious actors? If so just say so. If not, then say that instead.

Well if you want us to talk about whether it is a conspiracy or not (as opposed to just making fun of people who think it is) then that would be helpful, no?

No? I don't see how citing every time someone denied these conspiracies would bring anything to the discussion.

Then why not just say that specifically?

The story in itself is pretty out there. I wanted to see what people think of it, before moving on to any big-picture ultimate conclusions I might have about it.

Is your position that these people are malicious actors?

Malicious in the sense that they're driven by their fetish rather than finding the best standards of care, yes.

If so just say so. If not, then say that instead.

Ok, and from my side: if something in what I wrote is unclear, can you just ask what I meant, so I can clarify it, instead of complaining about the original post 9 comment levels deep?

Ok, and from my side: if something in what I wrote is unclear, can you just ask what I meant, so I can clarify it, instead of complaining about the original post 9 comment levels deep?

Yes and no. My issue is I see a lot of posts like this where rhetoric is pushed over clarity, and I think it is detrimental to the sub as a whole. Yours is one example. I am more interested in what's driving the (from my pov) meta changes to how people are writing after our switch over. No offense intended to you at all however. But for that to change, posts have to be engaged with at a meta level, if that makes sense.

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