This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Zelensky never wanted a war with Russia, won on a campaign of rapprochement with Russia, speaks better Russian than Ukrainian, had prewar business interests that extended into Russia and refused to believe Russia was going to invade until it pretty much happened (the CIA and MI6 tried to convince him months before he believed it). Then, after Ukraine’s surprising successes early on, it took Boris Johnson LARPing Churchill to persuade him into not signing the first reasonable deal Russia put on the table. This is all a matter of public record.
I think accusing Zelensky of being a warmonger seems therefore unreasonable. It seems very unlikely that a Russian-speaking PMC Jewish comedian and entertainment executive is some kind of hardcore blood and soil maximalist Azov Ukrainian ethnonationalist.
This was all true. But it's also hard to square that with the Zelensky of today asking for every weapon under the sun, wanting to make zero territorial concessions, and even "retake" Crimea which was only ever Ukraine's on paper. Like Trump, it's hard to tell if this guy got high on his own supply, or is merely bluffing to try to negotiate from a position of "strength". In which case, I don't much mind Trump bullshitting back. Zelensky wants to bullshit like they can push Russia back to 2014 borders? Fine, Trump can bullshit that he's 4% popular and started the war. If everyone is just making up bullshit, why not? The only one unhinged IMHO is the guy pissing off the state that has backstopped the defense of his nation. Maybe he's counting on the EU acting on their TDS and making up for this historic folly with material support that has thus far failed to materialize.
Either way I'd consider it a victory, so long as the US is disentangled from the whole enterprise. Although I'd be more happy with the war over so that the next Democrat in office doesn't just jump back in with both feet.
When did Zelensky ask for 'every weapon' under the sun? He clearly didn't, so what exactly do you mean? He is asking for what makes sense, the US and EU to assist in defeating or at least deterring Russia. If you ask me why that makes sense it would indicate a lack in your geopolitical knowledge and it would induce me to ask why you think you are capable of taking a position on this if you can't understand something as simple as that? Bullshitting and 'trolling' your ally and the person whose side you are supposed to represent in negotiations while supporting the other side's propaganda is the most insane thing you could say to support the lunatic's ramblings. Your last paragraph again indicates your lack of understanding of the greater picture. Would you be ok with Trump disentangling from NATO if the Russians decide to attempt to get a chunk of estonia? Because this is where this is heading when your own president is parroting enemy propaganda verbatim. I am sure you are also trying to explain away the guy's ramblings on Greenland and Canada. You guys elected a dummy that watches too much nonsense on twitter and you will say anything other than " oh shit we fucked up"..
I'm also european (german) and tbh this is exactly the attitude that pisses me off about the current EU. We're the equivalent of a guy who moved in with a friend because "it just makes sense, we save lots of money and we get along great". But as our friend moved forward, has a great job and pays more and more, we got stuck in place and increasingly skimp on the rent. And then we pretend to be surprised when he moves out to the big city, disgusted with us.
The US kept their backyard reasonably clean (Mexico and Canada), their economy has been growing tremendously compared to ours, and they invest appropriately in the military to safeguard their interests. We did none of those things. Russia is pathetic, we should have been able to easily defend Ukraine, but we couldn't, so the US had to jump in despite the fact that keeping Russia at bay is far, far more important to us (even if it may be one interest among many for the US, it's their decision whether they continue investing in this one).
Just to be clear, I want the war to continue, I want Russia to get nothing but a bloody nose. And if we had kept our house in order, we could let the US and Russia have their little peace talk, tell them to fuck off, and continue the war in Ukraine on our own anyway. But we didn't, so we depend on them, and we have no-one to blame but ourselves. WE are the dummys, not them, and we're way too far up our own asses to realize that.
First of all I completely agree, I hate the current European culture of naive pacifism and hyper-leftist tendencies. In my mind the situation is unsalvageable but anyway. What I believe you are missing though is that the US is not doing anything out of it's good heart , instead it's influence and protection over the continent is a big part of why it's still the global hegemon. Giving that up is not a result of ' you dummies fend for yourselves I am done paying ' but more the result of bad policy and a senile president whose understanding is clouded by Russian propaganda. In fact there is an interesting book by Alexander Dugin that talks about how it should be a Russian plan to disentangle Europe from the US by destabilization and sabotage etc. In fact it's not just a book but something of a manual to the Russian geopolitic influencers. Other then that even though I agree with you in principle I believe no European would like to see the eastern front repeat in the 21st century , well a US-EU breakup brings that infinetly closer in my opinion.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link