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ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   44900 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

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Not sure if this is better for SQS but - What is the steelman argument against vegetarianism/veganism? I am especially interested in claims that aren't health-based, as I know quite a few very intelligent and well-sourced vegans who have thoroughly convinced me that most health based claims are false.

I'm not a vegetarian myself but I'm reasonably convinced that I should be one, it's more of a moral failing on my part that I eat meat, not a logical stance.

What is the steelman argument against vegetarianism/veganism?

I like meat.

Hah, same here. Once we have lab grown meat that's better than real meat we'll both be happy.

More elaborately: there is no moral value in the world outside of human flourishing. Morality is not a characteristic of the universe, a cold hard fact we can measure with a morality device; it is a value we assign through our own personal determinations.

Animals don't have rights. Animals have whatever we give them and nothing else. My cat is valuable because I've got a personal bond with my cat. A cow isn't because I don't and want to eat it. In a different life, maybe I'd have a personal bond with a cow, and not eat it. But that's not because cows have the right to not be eaten, it's because I have a personal, one-on-one connection to that cow specifically.

Why do we eat meat? Because we like meat. That we like it is justification enough, because humanity alone is the arbiter of right and wrong.

Why do we eat meat? Because we like meat. That we like it is justification enough, because humanity alone is the arbiter of right and wrong.

Why use 'we' here? Humanity is divided on this issue or else there would not be a debate. If you want to say 'meat eaters alone are the arbiters of right and wrong' that would be more precise and would sound pretty cool, but I'm not sure it settles anything.

There isn't a real debate and humanity isn't divided on the issue. Vegetarians are a small minority.

While vegetarianism might still be a minority position, I can't help but notice that lots of countries have legislation in place regulating animal welfare. So it seems to me that a non-trivial percentage supports restricting the suffering of animals.

I don't advocate torturing animals, but that's because if you get off on torture there's probably something dangerous in your psyche, not because animals have the right to happiness.

if you get off on torture there's probably something dangerous in your psyche

But why would this be so, if it really is a matter of moral indifference? Why would it suggest anything worse about someone's psyche than, say, playing violent video games, or for that matter something totally neutral and unrelated like doing pushups, singing, etc.?

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